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Regina Camp


ploggy

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Hi,

does somebody has informations about Regina Camp, situated on the road from Ploegsteert to le Romarin?

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  • 14 years later...
On 13/05/2008 at 11:51, ploggy said:

Hi,

does somebody has informations about Regina Camp, situated on the road from Ploegsteert to le Romarin?

Dear Ploggy,

Did you ever get an answer to this? I can't find a grid reference anywhere. 

Peter

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Ploggy last visited us on February 19, 2020. I've sent him a Private Message that he might or might not pick up.

Moonraker

EDIT: I've also left a message on his website. The link on his profile page is still active.

Edited by Moonraker
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@WhiteStarLine might be able to assist? 

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Thanks Guys,

I've written to WhiteStarLine.

Regina Camp seems to have been used so often by the soldiers that they never bothered to include a grid reference in their diaries.

Best wishes,

Peter

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17 hours ago, Peter Button said:

 they never bothered to include a grid reference

After looking through all the usual sources this is the conclusion I've reached.  Someone will have a trench map or sketch map with this place named but after consulting Chasseaud's "Rats Alley", the Gazetteer of the Western Front and trawling over 125 maps of the area from TrenchMapper I've not found it.  A search of this forum elicited similar comments.  It's almost like a Sydneysider saying "meet me at the forecourt of the Sydney Opera House" - who would need a map!

Regina Camp was a large hutted area, on a major approach, so we must be able to see it even without a name.  Plus Peter has given us a grid reference to the south.  There are some other pointers we can follow, so here is my reasoning:

  1. When PTE Franks of the 38th AIF Battalion was killed, he was hit by a shell fragment while resting with his feet up on a window sill in one of the wooden huts at Regina Camp.  The man who carried the body to Ploegsteert Wood for burial also called it Regina Farm.
  2. When the New Zealand Rifle Brigade worked on Hill 63, they were billeted south in Regina Camp, near Romarin.  They took it over from the 10th Cheshires and extensively modernised it.  They recorded it as being on a farm as the farmer charged two of the battalions the same amount, claiming they had both chopped down one of his trees.
  3. We are now looking for a location of Regina Camp and / or Regina Farm.  In April 1918, the 2 South Lancashire Regiment consolidated their position and counter attacked the German forces who had occupied Ploegsteert Wood.  They launched their attack from higher ground 1,400 yards west of Ploegsteert Village, at Regina Farm.  This farm is on a slight rise.
  4. So we are looking for a significant military camp east of Romarin, 1,400 yards west of Ploegsteert Village and roughly south of Hill 63.  It has to be on an approach road and north of a point supplied by @Peter Button marking out a 1918 assault line. (Sheet 36 B.12.a.8.8)

As an officer cadet I did some terrible resections, so bear that in mind.  Click to enlarge: 

image.png.3d083a6bad0c6bf85dd3054136d5c851.png

In the April 1918 image below, Romarin is on the LHS marked with a green pin with Romarin Camp just above.  Hill 63 is the upper-most green marker and the town of Ploegsteert is on the RHS.  The red line is the rough limit of the German 1918 advance. 

image.png.3fd6a7ec6500f56efc461ad22616a564.png 

Your bottom marker is 50.716052, 2.867655.
62, Rue du Romarin, Ploegsteert, Comines-Warneton, Tournai-Mouscron, Hainaut, Wallonia, 7782, Belgium

Great War reference 36.B.12.a.80.82

 

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Bill

I have been reading the WDs of the CRE 25 Div covering the events of 10/04/1918. There are some narratives that show the RE and the Pioneers were ordered forward by 75 Infantry Brigade to take up a position from Regina Camp to Dou Dou Farm.

The Narrative of 6 SWB records Regina Camp to the left and B 12 a 8 8 to the right of the line held. 6 SWB continued the line to B 12 b central. Another reference gives a retirement to B 18 d 0 9 to B 18 a 5 5 and a further retirement to Dou Dou Farm.  Attached sketch map in the WD of the CRE showing the Army Line (which may be the line referred to) and Dou Dou Farm (Courtesy TNA WO 95/2232)

The WD of 2 South Lancs for 10/04/1918 records that Bn HQ was at Regina Farm T 29 d 9 4 (Attached courtesy TNA WO 95/2250) so your above location is bob on

I think that Regina Camp and Regina Farm were two different locations. More research required.

EDIT: No, I think it was one place at T 29 d 9 4

Brian

2sl.jpg

25 CRE.jpg

Edited by brianmorris547
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Dear WSL,

Thanks for your very helpful efforts. I agree about your explanation as to why nobody gave it a reference. Just go down the road from Romarin towards Plugstreet would have got anyone there.

It fits with everything I know. I just need to find an 8 foot by 8 foot drainage ditch between the line (Regina Camp to B.12.a.8.8) and Ploegsteert and I will know where my Great Uncle (Captain David Jenkins 6th South Wales Borderers) was shot on 10th April 1918. 

I will be there next week and let you know if I find it.

Best wishes,

Peter

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Thanks Brian &WSL.

That confirms the Regina location. Brilliant. One thing bothers me. My Great Uncle says in his Memoirs that when he charged he was 500 yards from Ploegstreet Village. Based on the references defining the attack line he was about 1,500 yards from the Village.

Maybe the German defences were on the outskirts of the village and he was estimating the distance to the first target.

If I find only one ditch between Oosthove Farm and Ploegstreet I'll be OK, But looking at the countryside there could be several.

Thanks again. 

Peter

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Peter

Have a read of the WD of the Commander Royal Engineers 25 Div for April 1918. There are some narratives, including one from Major Deane OC of the Pioneer Bn, 6 SWB. On Ancestry under RE - 25 Div - Piece 2232 pages 287 to 289.

Brian

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Thanks. Know all about Launcelot Deane. David Jenkins and he were good friends.

Deane was a mining engineer before the war - very useful at the Western Front. Everyone respected him. If he told you to dig a trench somewhere, you knew the trench would not fill up with water. 

Peter

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I forgot to post this map from the April 1918 WD of 25 Div HQ GS. WO 95/2226.

Shows Regina Farm at T 29 d 9 4 (unnamed) with some outhouses and Dou Dou Farm at B 5 c 7 7. I was comparing this map to my IGN 2404 E Armentieres 1:25 000.

The maps on the NLS system are split with T at the bottom of one and B at the top of the other. I was looking for a map that showed both, this was the nearest someone in 25 Div in 1918 joined the two together. 

Part of IGN 2404 E to compare. The high ground is the same on both maps apart from a bit in B 5 a.

2226.jpg

001.JPG

Edited by brianmorris547
additional info
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  • 2 weeks later...

Dear Brian (& WSL),

I am sorry to have taken so long in replying to your post but have just got home and am able to reply using my home computer which I find a lot easier. Using your reference for Regina Camp and the reference I already had for the other end of the line, I was able to find where my Great Uncle (Captain David Jenkins) in the 6th South Wales Borderers prepared to attack Ploegsteert Village. It's in a field and 50 yards from here towards Ploegsteert there is a drainage ditch about 8 feet wide (at the top) by 8 feet deep. This ditch was where my Uncle said in his Memoirs he was shot. Since we don't know whether he was in the centre or the right or the left of his "B" Company, the position in the ditch must be to within about 125 yards North or South. But it was good enough. I attach a picture taken on 16th August 2022 of me by the ditch recording my pleasure at finding it.

Thank you so much for your help. It has meant a lot to me and my family.

Peter

1973185811_20220816_135101(2).jpg.e53394c4df6355e8f14721e3dac4f5b8.jpg

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@Peter Button, the expression on your face says it all.  Well done and thanks for  confirming it!

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Peter

From the Narrative of Major Deane in the WD of the CRE 25 Div which showed the map references (it was C Company who extended the line from B 12 a 8 8 to B 12 b central) I was able to get a good idea of the line of the advance. I found the high ground marked on both maps a good guide when comparing to the modern day IGN.

Brian

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  • 7 months later...

I just received a photo of a Canadian standing in front of a Bell tent - on the back reads 'taken in Regina Camp'...perhaps just a Camp in Regina?

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