CROONAERT Posted 8 May , 2008 Share Posted 8 May , 2008 A few months ago, I was shown an image of something completely new to me - Belgian Army trenchmaps. These were all dated (if I recall correctly) September 1918 so I thought that maybe they just produced them towards the end of the war. However... today, I obtained a small batch of Belgian trenchmaps (basically covering the frontline area from Tervaete , north of Dixmude, down to Hooge and the Menin Road) all dated July 1917 (and it appears that one (incomplete map) that I thought was French which has been in my collection for some time is also Belgian (and dated July 1917 too!)). Now my question... does anyone know when the Belgian Army first started producing trenchmaps indipendantly of any other army? Has anyone seen any that pre-date July 1917? Cheers. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 31 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2008 Now my question... does anyone know when the Belgian Army first started producing trenchmaps indipendantly of any other army? Has anyone seen any that pre-date July 1917? Thanks to my posting a similar question on www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/, I now know that the Belgians had their own trenchmaps (marked "Armee Belge") at least as early as November 1916 (and had active Army topographical units in 1915, though whether these , or the French Army Service Topographique produced the trench maps , I'm still unsure). So, to re-phrase the original question... has anyone seen any Belgian trenchmaps that pre-date 1st November 1916 ? dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_oz Posted 17 June , 2008 Share Posted 17 June , 2008 Dave This does not answer your question but there are 7 Belgian Army maps from August and November 1917 attached to the War Diary of the AIF 36th Heavy Artillery Group HQ for November 1917. You can find them on the AWM site here http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM4/13/A...-25-22part3.pdf I hadent seen Belgium maps before and remembered this post. Tim B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 20 July , 2008 Share Posted 20 July , 2008 Hello Dave, I am looking for a Belgian trench map or part of it, showing the sector North of Diksmuide, with Belgian and German outposts in the flooded country between Stuivekenskerke and Diksmuide ( W of Yser) Best regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 July , 2008 Share Posted 20 July , 2008 Cnock, Dave does not post here anymore. You can find him on Paul Reed's "Ypres" forum though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 20 July , 2008 Share Posted 20 July , 2008 Egbert, Thank You for the info! Best regards, Eddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 19 August , 2008 Share Posted 19 August , 2008 In 'Topography of Armageddon' Chasseaud notes that the BEF used 1 : 20000 and 1 : 40000 Belgian national survey maps for reproduction from October 1914; later 1 : 10000 maps were used with coloured overprinting. They still seemed to be using redrawings in late 1917. On the other point, curiously, my only Belgian map is dated 1st July 1917! It was the work of the Service Topographique de l'Armée and in the bottom left hand corner is printed "Revision des détails planimetriques par C. Van Muysen le 12 mars 1917" Wonder who Van Muysen was?. The map covers the Steenstraat area and is 1 : 10000 The Belgians must surely have produced their own maps before July 1917, they'd been in the field long enough. Besides, having inundated vast tracts of their precious land, they would be the only ones likely to know the extent. German aircraft would have found it difficult to spot bog and marsh from the air. Might be worthwhile hunting for these maps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 5 October , 2008 Share Posted 5 October , 2008 Just acquired several Belgian trench maps, the oldest is from ..1st July 1917. Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenadier Posted 13 October , 2008 Share Posted 13 October , 2008 A few months ago, I was shown an image of something completely new to me - Belgian Army trenchmaps. These were all dated (if I recall correctly) September 1918 so I thought that maybe they just produced them towards the end of the war. However... today, I obtained a small batch of Belgian trenchmaps (basically covering the frontline area from Tervaete , north of Dixmude, down to Hooge and the Menin Road) all dated July 1917 (and it appears that one (incomplete map) that I thought was French which has been in my collection for some time is also Belgian (and dated July 1917 too!)). Now my question... does anyone know when the Belgian Army first started producing trenchmaps indipendantly of any other army? Has anyone seen any that pre-date July 1917? Cheers. Dave Sended a while ago a request for some trenchmaps (Tervaete ie Steenstraete) to "Het Legermuseum" in Brussels (as I had the chance and the honour to do my military service way back in the 70's in het "eerst Regiment Grenadiers"... and got soon thereafter a simple reply as of BEFORE LATE 1915 there was not any Army Topografical Cards done by the Belgian Army ... So as I interpretted their answer ... Original BELGIAN TRENCH MAPS from before 1916 are NOT EXISTING ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2008 ... So as I interpretted their answer ... Original BELGIAN TRENCH MAPS from before 1916 are NOT EXISTING ... yes - the earliest that I've now come across are dated November 1916. I wonder if there are any of earlier in the year though? Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 28 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 April , 2013 ...the earliest that I've now come across are dated November 1916. I wonder if there are any of earlier in the year though?... In answer to my own question (though it's been a long time in coming) - I've recently obtained some dated 25th January 1916.... and I presume that I'm now getting somewhere near to the earliest date! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 8 May , 2013 Share Posted 8 May , 2013 Many thanks for keeping us updated on your search to find the earliest Belgian trench maps Dave..... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 9 May , 2013 Share Posted 9 May , 2013 Thanks Dave and Tim, I hadn't seen a Plan Directeur series, so thanks for the download link. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 10 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2017 (edited) OK... 4 years down the line (and nearly 9 since the original query!) and I finally get my mitts on a 1915 Belgian Army trench map! (Thereby blowing my last theories out of the water!!!) Dated 20th September 1915, this particular map covers the area between Nieucappelle in the north and Steenstraat in the south. Though no Belgian/French positions are shown, the German trenches and battery positions are shown in some detail from Steenstraat to just above Drie Grachten... Looks like the hunt for the earliest date will have to continue now!!!! Dave Edited 10 June , 2017 by CROONAERT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 16 June , 2017 Share Posted 16 June , 2017 4 years down the line...! now that's what I call dedication Dave..... Or....like a dog with a bone....just won't let go...!! best regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 22 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2017 On 10/06/2017 at 18:13, CROONAERT said: ...Dated 20th September 1915, ... Probably at risk of giving my quest the 'kiss of death' (whereby I'm now almost guaranteed to find an earlier date!), I've opted for September 1915 being the earliest dated Belgian trench map as that month coincides with the Belgian Army establishing their (inherited) presses at Veurne after their relocation from Roesbrugge. For anyone interested, I've written a very short section on Belgian (and French) trench mapping (following the usual guff about British maps) on the trench map introduction page on my website. It can be found (towards the bottom of the page) by clicking the link here ... TRENCH MAPS Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Posted 17 January , 2018 Share Posted 17 January , 2018 Hi Croonaert, I don't know if you can help on this one, I hope so. Following on from my MiD topic posted a few weeks ago, awarded for the rescue of a Belgian Officer I think I've narrowed down to when and where the action took place resulting in the award: From 21st to 30th March two Companies of 8th North Staffords were at the Hollandsche Schuur Salient NW of Wijtschaete, supporting the 10th Queens and 26th Royal Fusiliers. You mention that most of your maps date from 1st July 1917 but do any of your Trench Maps from around this period show the Belgian Army in this area? tot ziens Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 17 January , 2018 Share Posted 17 January , 2018 Hello, No Belgian units anywhere near Wytschaete, I'm afraid... Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2018 22 hours ago, Interested said: ...do any of your Trench Maps from around this period show the Belgian Army in this area? Unless annotated (usually by hand), Trench Maps don't generally show units. Though the Belgian Army did produce trench maps of the Wytschaete area, they are usually dated 1918 but, as Jan says, there were no Belgian units (other than artillery*) as far south as Wytschaete in 1917 anyway. However, that does not, of course, rule out the possibility of observation officers being in the vicinity *Several Belgian units served south of 'their area' throughout the war... 1 battery of 155 howitzers (which was, later, to become part of the 15e Regt.Artillerie) was attached to the French near Roye (Somme), taking part in actions in the vicinity in March 1917; 59 & 60 batteries of the 94e Regt Artillerie was attached to the French for a period from January 1915; 3 batteries of 16 Regt.Artillerie were attached to the Brits , as were elements of 6e Regt Artillerie who partook in 1915 engagements at Hill 60 and St.Eloi. There is also the (memorialised in Ieper) '13 Belgian Field Artillery' which served in the Ypres salient with the British from May 1915 to May 1917 ('Hooge', 'Hill 60', 'Bluff', 'Wijtschaete', 'Mesen', etc)... and this doesn't count the Tolkenkorps (interpreters attached to the Brits and Yanks in various areas) and the Spoorwegbataljon der Genie that, in 1917, could be found in the Somme/Oise region reconstructing destroyed rail tracks and bridges on the Ribecourt-Noyon, Flavy - le Martel Tergnier and Ham - Foreste lines. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Posted 18 January , 2018 Share Posted 18 January , 2018 Hi Croonaert, Thanks for replying; more informative than Jan's, which appeared to shut the door on my avenue of research. The Croix de Guerre Belge and accompanying Certificate were awarded, so there must have been a Belgian National in the same area as my Grandfather at some time. Your mention of the Spoorweg bataljon der Genie repairing railway tracks has thrown up another possible alternative; the first week in March 1917 the Battalion was employed in laying a railway line in Courcelles having been moved there from Puisieux-au-mont. I'll need to have a look at some maps but I'm not sure if this coincides with the railways you mention. Again, thanks for helping. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2018 2 hours ago, Interested said: Your mention of the Spoorweg bataljon der Genie repairing railway tracks has thrown up another possible alternative; the first week in March 1917 the Battalion was employed in laying a railway line in Courcelles having been moved there from Puisieux-au-mont. I'll need to have a look at some maps but I'm not sure if this coincides with the railways you mention. Courcelles and Puisieux are nearly 30 miles as the crow flies from the nearest stretch of railway that the Belgians were working on, so it's doubtful that they are related. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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