Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars

[Interested]

On 25/01/2021 at 23:33, patchydog said:

was there some sort of fuel in the canister?

The "fuel" was calcium carbide which looks like chunks of chalk.  When water is dribbled on it, it produces acetylene gas, which gives off a white light.  The rate of dribbling is, I think, set by a small tap.  I used to be able to by canisters of carbide from Halfords !!!!

Hope this helps.

[david murdoch]

12 minutes ago, patchydog said:

that's an unusual looking armoured car? ,i havn't seen one like that before, was it a one off or mass produced?, unusual name as well.

regards patchydog

Interwar armoured cars in India,  Crossley and Rolls Royce  had these domed turrets. 

[Andrew Upton]

45 minutes ago, patchydog said:

that's an unusual looking armoured car? ,i havn't seen one like that before, was it a one off or mass produced?, unusual name as well.

regards patchydog

 

Appears to be a Vickers-Crossley, see:

 

Vickers Crossley Armoured Car - Wikipedia

[patchydog]

3 hours ago, Interested said:

The "fuel" was calcium carbide which looks like chunks of chalk.  When water is dribbled on it, it produces acetylene gas, which gives off a white light.  The rate of dribbling is, I think, set by a small tap.  I used to be able to by canisters of carbide from Halfords !!!!

Hope this helps.

thank you for the info, pics from RRAC & David Murdoch indicate the front of the lamps were hinged to facilitate lighting of the gas mantle, they would really be handy fixing flats at night.

[patchydog]

3 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Appears to be a Vickers-Crossley, see:

 

Vickers Crossley Armoured Car - Wikipedia

thank you for the  info link

[patchydog]

3 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Interwar armoured cars in India,  Crossley and Rolls Royce  had these domed turrets. 

thank you for the picture, that's a long line of them

[david murdoch]

This well known photo of Rolls Royce on the Guillemont road. I've made positive identification of car  M^227 as belonging to 8th L.A.B. Their war diary shows they were based at Carnoy in the timeframe for Flers and specifically notes one car went up to Guillemont with the CO on 15th September 1916 to reconnoiter the road. From the war diary at this point they just referred to the cars as Nos 1,2,3 & 4, however later on (with a different writer) they noted the serial numbers when going in for modifications and overhauls. This shows the 8th L.A.B cars were M^226, M^227,M^228 and M^229. They were supporting 1st Cavalry Brigade on their advance on Rocquingy and were to be positioned to counter any German attacks in that area. 

These are the only Rolls Royce seen with these "letter box" turret extensions (some Lanchesters had them also).  I have one of my grandfather's personal photos of four cars with this turret modification on parade  in Mesopotamia, so it implies they still had these turret mods in place when they went to Mesopotamia at the end of 1917 as one half of 8th L.A.M.B. Possibly the turret extensions were then removed as un necessary as they don't turn up in any other photos yet seen. By elimination the camouflaged cars at Arras and towing 3 pounder Hotchkiss will be 9th L.A.B. and cars with uralite but un camouflaged 7th L.A.B (they only had the uralite fitted three days prior to going to Arras).

[patchydog]

interesting turret extensions, what was their specific purpose ?

[david murdoch]

On 02/02/2021 at 20:55, patchydog said:

interesting turret extensions, what was their specific purpose ?

They were to give better visibility without having to stick your head outside. The square type really just raised the top hatch up on the box and there were vision slits all round. The other type they raised the whole roof of the turret which was a more permanent modification. Some late war cars and the later 1920 model they made the body of the turret deeper which made it taller and roomier inside. These modifications were only done in very small numbers and by the L.A.Bs in France (documented in the war diaries). The square box type I think represents the whole of 8th L.A.B. (4 cars) then some but not all of 7th and 9th L.A.B had tall turret modifications. Possibly 4 - 6 cars maximum - you never see more than a couple  together in one photo.  7th and 9th swapped over cars  mid 1917 but all the cars in France in 1917 ended up in Mesopotamia.  

[patchydog]

the piller box extensions look very advantageous for the taller members of crews .

on your spreadsheet i noticed john thomson killed in action near huwaish 1918, i found his story which was very interesting, his real name was john mcdougal who originally served in france, his vehicle was hit by a turkish shell & he was killed whilst trying to restart the vehicle 

[david murdoch]

On 04/02/2021 at 02:44, patchydog said:

the piller box extensions look very advantageous for the taller members of crews .

on your spreadsheet i noticed john thomson killed in action near huwaish 1918, i found his story which was very interesting, his real name was john mcdougal who originally served in france, his vehicle was hit by a turkish shell & he was killed whilst trying to restart the vehicle 

 

 

I'm fairly sure Thomson/McDougall  was in the same car that the Brigade commander  Major Thompson was in, as it is noted as being hit by shellfire and was found abandoned on October 27th.  His Distinguished Conduct Medal is dated to the same day he died and his body was not recovered (likely battlefield grave lost) as he is on the Basra Memorial.  Major Thompson was taken POW on this date  and released 2nd November. There is no note of any other crewmen being taken prisoner or being released. Nigel Somerset took over the Tigris Front battle group (Thompson's Force) and Captain Graham Carr of 13th L.A.M.B took over the L.A.M.B Brigade. The cars under shellfire photos from Imperial War Museum  are noted as being 14th L.A.M.B The cars involved in this action were all 8 of 14th L.A.M.B and 4 from 8th L.A.M.B.

Edited 1 March , 2021 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

Another good photo of an armoured car with full turret extension. According to Haynes Manual it's noted as being in East Africa. However this car must have gone there later in the war. It was one of the original compliment belonging to 9th L.A.B that went to France in March 1916.  This particular car number is noted in their war diary being rotated to Calais for modifications on 4th October 1916 and returning to the battery on 15th October 1916 with "observation turret" fitted and later it had uralite cladding fitted. There is no record of it being transferred so it would have served with 9th L.A.B at Arras in Spring 1917. Then on 18th July 1917 for reasons unknown 9th L.A.B and 7th L.A.B swapped over their armoured cars. So  cars M^230, M^231, M^232 and M^233 were then with 7th L.A.B in France in the latter part of 1917. 7th L.A.B was expanded to become 7th L.A.M.B and moved to Mesopotamia arriving there end of January 1918. In the war diary 2nd February  it notes OC and personnel already arrived shipping from Basra to Baghdad. On 15th February it notes their vehicles and (balance of) personnel arriving in Basra from German East Africa via Karachi!  The second photo IWM Q57995 is the same car probably taken later in 1918 - the turret extension being obscured by tarpaulin and headlights removed, but certainly in Africa. It would appear then that 7th L.A.B vehicles  went to Mesopotamia from France probably end of December 1917 via East Africa  then India and possibly overhauled cars were traded for ones already in Africa and additional cars to make up L.A.M.B compliment were picked up there, so at least M^230 ended up staying in Africa.

[plant-pilot]

I have been very impressed with the knowledge in this thread and wondered if anyone could assist me.

 

The background is that my Grandfather joined the Royal artillery in 1907, and once his training was complete, was posted out to U Bty RHA in India. At the outbreak of WW1 he moved with his Battery to France and served most of the war with the guns. At some point after he was made a Sgt, he was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and moved on to Armour, we believe initially on tanks, but we have been told that the photo below is of him as an instructor on a Course for crews of the Rolls-Royce Armoured Car.

 

The photo looks like it was in Europe but by the medals it was shortly after. He was posted back to India and in 1926, was on the staff of the Royal Tank Corps School, Ahmednagar, India

 

My questions are:

 

1. Can the type of Armoured Car be identified? We can see the front wheel has wire spokes. There are also handles on the exterior of the turrets that most cars don't seem to have, although I have seen similar on some of the photos of RRAC in Mesopotamia. I'm sure that someone out there can enlighten me.
2. Location? Was there somewhere that ran the official RRAC courses? Or is this not a school run course?
3. Date? As I have mentioned I suspect that it is shortly after the war. My information on when he went back to India is just hearsay and I would be interested if someone could narrow it down or even confirm my suspicions.

As an aside, as my Grandfather was at the Royal Tank Corps School until 1928, there could be a good chance he worked on, or at least with, the example at the Cavalry Tank Museum in Ahmednagar. Does anyone have the history of that example?

 

 

[RRAC]

Hello and thank you for posting this interesting photo.  I'd love to see more if you have them!

 

1.  The cars are both 1914 Pattern examples.  The turret handle positions tended to vary depending on the builder, the unit, and the time.  Few Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars were identical and fewer still remained so for long in service.

 

2.  As for the location, the photographer's name "MELARAM" appears next to the wheel in the lower left.  I googled it and came up with this information on Bonham's Auction House's website:   "Mela Ram & Sons, based in Peshawar Cantonment, was one of the most famous of the few photographic studios based in the North West Frontier. Ram began his career in the 1890s as an army photographer and went on to record numerous British campaigns." ( https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18942/lot/303/ )

Who was running the course depends on when and where it was being run.  I am certainly no expert on unit organization in India and the North West Frontier.  Hopefully someone else will chime in!

 

3.  The date is likely between 1919 and 1924.  I think the wire wheels on cars serving in India were replaced with NAP wheels and tyres beginning in late 1923.  (These are the kind seen on the surviving Ahmednagar car.)

 

I would very much like to learn the history of the Ahmednagar car too.  I have seen photos of a number of similar cars in India, but have so far been unable to confirm which car it is.  - I've seen some speculation but I am looking for a positive ID.

 

Mark

"RRAC"

[plant-pilot]

Thanks for your comments.

 

Nice to be able to narrow the vehicles down to 1914 Pattern and a surprise to find that the photo was taken in India. I had always looked at the service dress and assumed that it was taken in Europe before he had returned to India. But as you have pointed out, the photographer was based in India and unlikely to have travelled to Europe to take it.  

 

[RRAC]

Hello again,

 

I looked through my files and found an image dated 1931 that was taken in "Cawnpore" (Kanpur), India which shows a 1914 Pattern Rolls-Royce of 2 ACC still wearing wire wheels.  There is a copy of this image online in this interesting forum thread here:  https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintage-cars-classics-india/162572-pre-war-military-vehicles-india-5.html

This widens the date range for wire wheels in India to at least 1919-1931, which fits better with your grandfather's service record.  Based on the overlap of these two periods, I think the date range for your photo would be 1926-1928.

 

Mark

"RRAC"

 

[plant-pilot]

Thanks again. 

Quote

This widens the date range for wire wheels in India to at least 1919-1931, which fits better with your grandfather's service record.  Based on the overlap of these two periods, I think the date range for your photo would be 1926-1928.

I have a few photos of different periods of his career. The moustache gives us a bit of a clue to the date. The moustache style as seen in the photo is a style that he has in all WW1 photos. I have a photo of the Sgts Mess members of the Royal Tank Corps School in Ahmednagar. There, his moustache has been trimmed in a much more 'Hitleresque' fashion. It remains that way on his return to the UK and it disappeared completely at or before the start of WW2 (perhaps for understandable reasons). 

 

So given the information that you have given and the 'facial hair' clues you were completely unaware of, would you agree to my current assumption that would put the photo pre-1926? He moved back to India shortly after the war and returned to England on discharge in 1928. He was an instructor at the Royal Tank Corps School India, but I have no record or other evidence, to say if that was his role for the whole time or that was where he spent his last couple of years having served in another Royal Tank Corps unit.

 

[RRAC]

Yes, if your grandfather was back in India before 1926, then this photo could be earlier.  Based just on the cars anytime in the 1919-1931 period could be possible. 

 

On a side note I just saw the bullet dent on the front plate of the turret on the car on the right.  It also appears that the gun aperture is roughly cut (compare it to the clean lines on the car at left).  I wonder how these rough edges might have come about.  Is this apparent in the original photo?

 

Mark

"RRAC"

[plant-pilot]

Hats off to you Mark,

 

That is exceptional observation. I have never noticed the bullet scar and thought the rough edges were how they were. It does look like the aperture was hot cut with a 'gas axe' and not finished (rushed/oversight?). I can't think of anything that would cause that after production.

 

I will have to wait to look at the original photo as my Mother has it, not me, If there is any more detail I will try and scan it at a higher resolution.

 

Thanks again. 

[RRAC]

I am wondering if that rough looking front turret plate may have been a field-expedient replacement.

 

Mark

"RRAC"

[plant-pilot]

Hi Mark,

The other edges of the plate all seem to be smooth and well made. Not beyond the realms of possibility, but if you are going to finish the edges wouldn't you finish the aperture edges too? Obviously someone didn't; either on the original production or at a later date when it was replaced.

 

My other thought would be that if the plate was replaced because of battle damage, wouldn't that have replaced the bullet scar too? Or has this car had a busy life already?

[RRAC]

I am thinking that it is relatively easy to cut the outer edges of an 8mm thick steel plate but difficult to cut an opening, so they torch cut it.  Also, locally sourced steel probably wouldn't be as strong as purpose made armour plate, therefor it would be more likely to deform when hit.  - This is just speculation though.  I'd like to know the real story!

 

Mark

"RRAC"

[plant-pilot]

16 hours ago, RRAC said:

I am thinking that it is relatively easy to cut the outer edges of an 8mm thick steel plate but difficult to cut an opening, so they torch cut it.  Also, locally sourced steel probably wouldn't be as strong as purpose made armour plate, therefor it would be more likely to deform when hit.  - This is just speculation though.  I'd like to know the real story!

With that thought, I now have visions of them fabricating the replacement front plate out of some steel sheet that they had in the workshops store, 'hot axing' the aperture and taking a pot shot at the plate to test its armour capabilities.  As you say. I'd love to have the real story.

[david murdoch]

On 15/05/2021 at 17:56, plant-pilot said:

With that thought, I now have visions of them fabricating the replacement front plate out of some steel sheet that they had in the workshops store, 'hot axing' the aperture and taking a pot shot at the plate to test its armour capabilities.  As you say. I'd love to have the real story.

Just taking a look at this photo there is another non standard mod along the top of the turret where there is an additional strip of metal added. This may be another indicator that this is a rebuilt/repaired turret. The 1914 pattern cars in India with spoked wheels most likely came from Mesopotamia (Ex 13th L.A.M.B.), and those ended up with 7th ACC. Other 1914 pattern cars sent out directly from UK were fitted with solid wheels and NAP tyres (in the UK).

The one in the museum in Ahmednagar, I've have the chassis number noted down somewhere in my files. It is certainly a 1914 pattern and one originally belonging to the Royal Naval Air Service. It's had NAP wheels fitted and replacement mudguards, but still has the mounts for spare wheels.

The spoked wheel cars  were still in use in 1928. There was an accident when one went off the Ravi Bridge, Lahore in January 1928. 
Doing some research into this nasty looking accident. It appears to have actually happened on 12th January 1928, and reported in "The Englishman" (Indian newspaper) published 19th. This article elaborates as to what happened and also that the car's officer 2nd Lt Logan died of injuries (broke his back while jumping clear) and the four other crew were hurt but not seriously. Unless the turret fell clear it was likely crushed - it does not appear lying separately in other photos of the crash site. 

[plant-pilot]

Thanks for the information David, 

 

I think we have safely established that one of the cars in the photo has had the turret repaired/replaced. It has been pointed out earlier in the thread that turrets were repaired/replaced/modified once they had been issued to the field units. We certainly have an example of that here. 

 

The car in the crash photo is a mess. It is a surprise that anyone got out of that alive, considering the crew had no seats in the modern sense of the word and were not secured in any way (or had they fitted seats by then?). When I was in the army, you know that you can get hurt in training and on active duty, but it was always especially sad to lose people in preventable accidents. I'm sure it was the same back then.