Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars

[boctok]

Many thanks for the Gazette references. 

 

(I was fascinated to see the "No. 4 Soda Water Section"' in the composition!)

 

 

[keithmroberts]

I htink we have been pushing the boundaries of the great War here, so perhaps this  topic could  stick to great War subjects from here on. I ahve not removed the recent posts as "nearly on topic"

 

Thanks

 

Keith Roberts

[RJFB]

Although a late-comer to this forum I can add a little information about one of the armoured cars, HMAC Bloodhound.  My father Ralph Beaney served in the RAF 1st Armoured Car Company on 1940-41 in Iraq and then the Western Desert and he was gunner/driver of Bloodhound.  It definitely was still an armoured car at that time and had not been converted to a tender as hypothesised above.  He was stationed at RAF Habbaniya in 1941 during the Rashid Ali revolt.  He also used to tell us about being at Kirkuk and Damascus with Faisal and then in the desert,  He was finally invalided out with appendicitis in late 1941 having an emergency operation in a tent by a man who was a famous Harley Street surgeon.  He believed that Bloodhound was one of the cars which served with T E Lawrence.  At some point the cars in his section received additional armour plate.  Apparently the "griff" was that this armour was some that came off HMS Hood when that iconic ship was refitted but this seems unlikely.

 

Back in 2008 I corresponded with John Rolph who was collaborating with Dr Nigel Warwick in the compilation of a history of the RAF Armoured Car Companies from 1921 to 1953.  He wrote that "Have done a bit of research on HMAC Bloodhound. It might have been good fortune that your father was hospitalized in November 1941 as three armoured cars were destroyed by enemy action in the retreat in Libya in January 1942, Bloodhound being one of them."

 

Walrus was one of two one-off "tanks" stationed at Habbaniya in 1941 see this link for more info. https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/two-dragons-or-a-seal-and-a-walrus/

 

[James A Pratt III]

The book "Warcars" is about British armored cars in the WW I period.

[RJFB]

[RRAC]

RJFB,

 

That is a great photo of Bloodhound.  The car in your photo is a 1920 Pattern MK I.  It served in 1st Armoured Car Company, RAF in Iraq during the 1930s and into WWII.  It appears to have been the second Rolls-Royce armoured car to have this name.  The first Bloodhound was a 1914 Admiralty Pattern car that served in France and Egypt in WWI, initially with No. 2 Squadron of the Royal Naval Armoured Car Division but later turned over to the Army.  It was the earlier 1914 car that was converted into a tender during WWI.

 

The most visible differences between the two patterns are the height of the turret and the presence of the louvered plates on the armoured doors which protect the radiator. 

 

Do you have any more photos of these wonderful cars?  I would love to see them!

 

Mark Cowan

"RRAC"

 

 

[RJFB]

Here are more pictures from my father's war service in Iraq.  The first is a parade in honour of the King's birthday in 1940.  The second illustrates "Battle Formation" and the third depicts RAF Armoured Car Company 1 titled RR AC 01.

Edited 4 March , 2019 by RJFB
Captions

[RJFB]

Apologies that it has taken so long for me to respond.  Here are some further photos from that time.  The first five show the difficulties experienced negotiating floods at Fallujah in 1940.  The last two were of members of the company with cars in the background.

 

 

[RRAC]

Outstanding photos!  Thank you for posting them. 

 

Most of these cars are updated 1914 Pattern.

 

Mark Cowan

"RRAC"

[patchydog]

On 08/05/2008 at 19:46, yellow said:

There seams to be a lot of very knowledgable people when it comes to the names of WW1 tanks on the forum, so I was wondering if anyone knows anything about armoured cars?

Here is my list of interests:

HMAC Golden Mank - Plated front wheel, solid rear wheel 1920 Upgrade

HMAC Golden Goblin - Spoked front Wheel, solid rear wheel 1920 Upgrade

HMAC Silver Fox - Plated front wheel, solid rear wheels, 1920 upgrade with command cupola!

HMAC Silver Dart - Plated front wheel, solid rear wheels, 1920 upgrade

Looking for any scraps of information on these cars if anyone has ever seen them in books or had relatives who served in the units which these cars are assocaited?

Thanks for reading.

my grand dad drove both silver dart & silver ghost in mesopotamia & both vehicles did not have solid wheels but spokes see pics

[Gardenerbill]

Welcome to the forum patchydog, great photos thanks for posting them.

[RRAC]

Patchydog,

 

Thank you for sharing these wonderful images of SILVER GHOST and SILVER DART!  Do you have any more? 

 

The photos you posted very clearly show what I think is "Uralite" insulation.  This was an asbestos-containing product intended to reduce bullet penetration and provide thermal relief.  It apparently did neither well as it was experimented with and then dropped from use.  I hope your grandfather didn't inhale too much dust from it.

 

Did your grandfather serve in 14 LAMB during the War?  If so you might want to download the 14 LAMB War Diary here:  http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/faa4c98d331a4800aa25c8c46cb63f73  Due to the COVID-19 situation, you can currently download it from the National Archives for free.

 

There are several groups of Rolls-Royce armoured cars which had colour names over the years (Silver, Golden, Yellow, Black and Grey).  Of these the Grey and Silver names seem to have originated in 14 LAMB in about 1917 and then carried over into 2 ACC and 7 ACC of the Tank Corps as the cars were reorganized post-war, disappearing from use in the 1920s.  (Golden and Yellow names first appear in 2 ACC postwar while Black names appears in two instances early in the war with the RNACD and then again postwar in 7 ACC.)  There were at least nine Rolls-Royce armoured cars that have carried a Silver name:  SILVER KNIGHT, SILVER SNIPE, SILVER DART, SILVER FOX, SILVER WITCH, SILVER CLOUD, SILVER DOCTOR, SILVER QUEEN and SILVER GHOST. 

 

SILVER GHOST seems to have gone from 14 LAMB to 2 ACC.  SILVER DART also appears to have gone from 14 LAMB to 2 ACC (it is mentioned in the NOPERFORCE War Diary on July 18, 1921) and then to 7 ACC in India/Northwest Frontier.

 

There is a grainy photo of SILVER DART in the book Leachman O.C. Desert: The Life of Lieutenant-Colonel Gerard Leachman D.S.O. by Winstone, included here for research/educational purposes.  I recommend you get the book if your grandfather served in Mesopotamia the 1918-1920 period.  

 

Mark Cowan

"RRAC"

[patchydog]

hello gardener bill

thank you for your reply full of valuable information ,yes grampy (william clark acton from blackpool) was in 14 lamb from 1916 to late 1919 only have one more pic of an armoured car  i think it is an austin , i do have a few pics of the soldiers in the unit though i will post a couple now but i do have more , grampy is in his undies in one of the pics, i will now go and check out the archives link you kindly sent me

regards david maguire

[Gardenerbill]

I think you meant to thank RRAC but never mind, more cracking photos though.

[patchydog]

7 hours ago, RRAC said:

Patchydog,

 

Thank you for sharing these wonderful images of SILVER GHOST and SILVER DART!  Do you have any more? 

 

The photos you posted very clearly show what I think is "Uralite" insulation.  This was an asbestos-containing product intended to reduce bullet penetration and provide thermal relief.  It apparently did neither well as it was experimented with and then dropped from use.  I hope your grandfather didn't inhale too much dust from it.

 

Did your grandfather serve in 14 LAMB during the War?  If so you might want to download the 14 LAMB War Diary here:  http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/faa4c98d331a4800aa25c8c46cb63f73  Due to the COVID-19 situation, you can currently download it from the National Archives for free.

 

There are several groups of Rolls-Royce armoured cars which had colour names over the years (Silver, Golden, Yellow, Black and Grey).  Of these the Grey and Silver names seem to have originated in 14 LAMB in about 1917 and then carried over into 2 ACC and 7 ACC of the Tank Corps as the cars were reorganized post-war, disappearing from use in the 1920s.  (Golden and Yellow names first appear in 2 ACC postwar while Black names appears in two instances early in the war with the RNACD and then again postwar in 7 ACC.)  There were at least nine Rolls-Royce armoured cars that have carried a Silver name:  SILVER KNIGHT, SILVER SNIPE, SILVER DART, SILVER FOX, SILVER WITCH, SILVER CLOUD, SILVER DOCTOR, SILVER QUEEN and SILVER GHOST. 

 

SILVER GHOST seems to have gone from 14 LAMB to 2 ACC.  SILVER DART also appears to have gone from 14 LAMB to 2 ACC (it is mentioned in the NOPERFORCE War Diary on July 18, 1921) and then to 7 ACC in India/Northwest Frontier.

 

There is a grainy photo of SILVER DART in the book Leachman O.C. Desert: The Life of Lieutenant-Colonel Gerard Leachman D.S.O. by Winstone, included here for research/educational purposes.  I recommend you get the book if your grandfather served in Mesopotamia the 1918-1920 period.  

 

Mark Cowan

"RRAC"

hello RRAC

thank you for the national archives link ,i have now downloaded & saved it a mine of information 

[patchydog]

On 18/12/2020 at 07:47, patchydog said:

hello gardener bill

thank you for your reply full of valuable information ,yes grampy (william clark acton from blackpool) was in 14 lamb from 1916 to late 1919 only have one more pic of an armoured car  i think it is an austin , i do have a few pics of the soldiers in the unit though i will post a couple now but i do have more , grampy is in his undies in one of the pics, i will now go and check out the archives link you kindly sent me

regards david maguire

hello RRAC & Gardener bill, here are a few more the boys in 14LAM the lady was grampy's pin up girl in the desert (gran)

regards patchydog

[yellow]

On 17/12/2020 at 02:55, patchydog said:

my grand dad drove both silver dart & silver ghost in mesopotamia & both vehicles did not have solid wheels but spokes see pics

 

 

The majority of cars, just as with modern military vehicles later undergo upgrades to increase service life. Parts also need to be replaced as they do not last forever, particularly for vehicles traveling over difficult terrain.

Here is Silver Dart. Note the wheels.

Edited 13 January , 2021 by yellow

[patchydog]

12 hours ago, yellow said:

 

The majority of cars, just as with modern military vehicles later undergo upgrades to increase service life. Parts also need to be replaced as they do not last forever, particularly for vehicles traveling over difficult terrain.

Here is Silver Dart. Note the wheels.

hello yellow thank you for posting an updated photo of silver dart , i see by a previous post they got updated wheels in mid 1920 after grandad left mosul in january 1920 so he probably did not know they got updated wheels, 

[david murdoch]

On 17/12/2020 at 02:55, patchydog said:

my grand dad drove both silver dart & silver ghost in mesopotamia & both vehicles did not have solid wheels but spokes see pics

Nice pictures of Silver Dart and Silver Ghost showing the cladding. Silver Knight also had it. Photo of which appears in David Fletcher's war cars notes it as belonging to 15th L.A.M.B I have a picture of a fourth car (unidentified) also with cladding.  Photo of 14th L.A.M.B car in action at Sharqat can just make out the turret has cladding. I have one of my grandfather's negatives where one of these cars appears parked up beside a car of 8th L.A.M.B  I suspect all those cars belonged to 14th L.A.M.B. The cars from 8th L.A.M.B went to Mesopotamia directly from France - when there the had slab Uralite cladding fitted in 1916/1917 which is well documented in the war diaries of predecessor units 8th and 9th L.A.Bs. but clear from later photos  and war diaries this and other armour additions were removed due to weight issues.  14th L.A.M.B and their cars went directly from UK to Mesopotamia. The cladding seen on these cars in Mesopotamia I believe is asbestos sheet/cement that was fitted to try and keep heat down rather than up armouring - seeing cars of other units not having it  hints it was something tried out by 14th L.A.M.B.  The photos of Dart and Ghost date from 1918 or later as they have the L.A.M.B brigade  symbol painted on them.

[patchydog]

hello David

nice pics, i imagine the heat inside the vehicles must have been tremendous in the hot desert without the cladding , but the extra weight on those narrow wheels in the sand would have had its own problems .

regards Patchydog

 

 

[david murdoch]

On 13/01/2021 at 11:25, yellow said:

 

The majority of cars, just as with modern military vehicles later undergo upgrades to increase service life. Parts also need to be replaced as they do not last forever, particularly for vehicles traveling over difficult terrain.

Here is Silver Dart. Note the wheels.

Interesting as this is obviously later than Patchydog's photo. The car has been fitted with 1920 pattern Michelin wheels, but the asbestos cladding has been removed from the turret and cab  as rivets can be seen. The L.A.M.B Brigade symbol has been re applied on the side of the car and appears to have a dark or coloured border. I have seen a couple of photos of different cars with light border to the badge. This suggests the different batteries within the Brigade perhaps had different coloured borders as tactical recognition. Per the war diaries the cars of different batteries invariably worked together. 

[david murdoch]

On 16/01/2021 at 00:37, patchydog said:

hello David

nice pics, i imagine the heat inside the vehicles must have been tremendous in the hot desert without the cladding , but the extra weight on those narrow wheels in the sand would have had its own problems .

regards Patchydog

 

 

Another interesting photo. Two men at the back are Indian. I'd hazard a guess that the child is possibly Kurdish as (most of ) the L.A.M.B  were active in the north of Iraq and Kurdistan. Certainly 14th L.A.M.B war diary place names show their main area of operations being in Kurdistan. These photos are actually screen grabs from a movie film. They show  armoured car unit checking out Turkish prisoners  - likely in last couple of months of the war. Often in the "Mosul road dash" prisoners were  just disarmed and left at the side of the road and many were then murdered by the locals.  In these photos the armoured car appears to be painted a very light colour (in contrast to the uniforms). Also noting crewman wearing sheepskin jerkin.

[patchydog]

hello David

you certainly have an eye for detail ,i have learned more about grandads tour of duty the last week since posting the pics than my whole life, i just wish i had listened to him decades ago although he rarely spoke of the war. thank you for the link to war in the garden of eden by Kermit Roosevelt from gutenberg i downloaded it in epub then downloaded calibre ,it is very enlightening. can you tell me the name of the film your stills are from ? it looks very interesting.

regards David Maguire (patchydog)

 

[david murdoch]

10 hours ago, patchydog said:

hello David

you certainly have an eye for detail ,i have learned more about grandads tour of duty the last week since posting the pics than my whole life, i just wish i had listened to him decades ago although he rarely spoke of the war. thank you for the link to war in the garden of eden by Kermit Roosevelt from gutenberg i downloaded it in epub then downloaded calibre ,it is very enlightening. can you tell me the name of the film your stills are from ? it looks very interesting.

regards David Maguire (patchydog)

 

 

 

The links to the armoured car footage. In this link about 1:30 in there is footage of an armoured car. There are also stills from this clip on the Imperial War Museum site. 

(206) War at the British front in Mesopotamia, 1917-1918 - YouTube

In this old BBC WW1 series  there are two clips of armoured cars  one around 11:15 in and a second at about 35:10. Again there are stills from these clips I bought from the Imperial War Museum may years ago before they were online. The first clip is the prisoners on the road  and the second is armoured cars in Kurdistan and  Kirkuk  under fire in May 1918 - I believe these are 8th and 13th L.A.M.B but you can clearly see the Brigade symbol on the back. 

(206) The Great War Ep 24 Allah Made Mesopotamia and Added Flies - YouTube

 

 

[david murdoch]

This one unfortunately the quality is not very good. It's one of my grandfather's own photos. I have the negative so need to try and get  better copy!  My grandfather was in 8th L.A.M.B and most of his photos show cars with turret extensions  which fit's with them originating from 8th or 9th L.A.Bs in France and likely his own car is amongst them. What is interesting is the car on the left is clearly one of those  which has asbestos cement on the turret and cab - you can see the thickness of it around the gun port and cab doors. Neither of these cars is showing the L.A.M.B symbol or number on the back as per the previous photo. It seems standard practice to have the turret reversed when parked up  and the guns were dismounted when not in use and put on the tripods for cleaning and maintenance . In the full photo  the Vickers are set on their standard tripods and with an allocation of ammunition boxes. The car to the left also has three round spooled belts of ammunition sitting on the back toolbox and on the ground by the wheels appears to be the magazine or support  cradle for these.  So I believe this is a car of 14th L.A.M.B (left) and one of 8th L.A.M.B (right)