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Rolls-Royce Armoured Cars

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yellow

There seams to be a lot of very knowledgable people when it comes to the names of WW1 tanks on the forum, so I was wondering if anyone knows anything about armoured cars?

Here is my list of interests:

HMAC Golden Mank - Plated front wheel, solid rear wheel 1920 Upgrade

HMAC Golden Goblin - Spoked front Wheel, solid rear wheel 1920 Upgrade

HMAC Silver Fox - Plated front wheel, solid rear wheels, 1920 upgrade with command cupola!

HMAC Silver Dart - Plated front wheel, solid rear wheels, 1920 upgrade

Looking for any scraps of information on these cars if anyone has ever seen them in books or had relatives who served in the units which these cars are assocaited?

Thanks for reading.

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RRAC

Hello,

There was a Rolls Royce armoured car named "Silver Dart" that served in the British Army in Iraq in 1917. It is mentioned in the book War in the Garden of Eden by Kermit Roosevelt (available in reprint or online as a free "e-book" at http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/13665 There are a number of photos of armoured cars in this book and I highly recommend it to those with an interest in these armoured cars and the war in Mesopotamia.) Roosevelt also mentions another car serving in Iraq named "Silver Ghost". Unfortunately, I don't have any specifics on the unit with which they were serving.

It appears that it was common for the cars in a particular unit to have names starting with the same word or letter, so it might be helpful to mention that I know of another car with "Silver" in its name. "Silver Snipe" served during the 1920s in India as part of the British Army's 7th Armoured Car Company. Given the similarities in name it is possible that "Silver Dart", "Silver Fox", "Silver Ghost" served in this unit as well. Of course this is just supposition, but it might be a helpful lead in your research.

What information do you have on the armoured cars that you mentioned? I am always looking for images of these wonderful vehicles or new lines of research into their history. I am compiling a spreadsheet listing all of the Rolls Royce armoured car that that can be identified together with information on their names, identification numbers, histroic photographs, and the specific units with which these cars served.

I have to confess that "Golden Mank", "Golden Goblin" and "Silver Fox" are new to me. I'd very much appreciate learning more about them.

Mark C

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david murdoch

Silver Dart was a car belonging to 14th L.A.M.B. This car was also used by Gerard Leachman (OC Desert) when he commanded the L.A.M.B brigade. There are pictures of it in the book OC Desert, and also another in War Cars. It was an original spoked wheel version that was upgraded. Silver Ghost also belonged to 14th L.A.M.B.

As mentioned in previous post the naming conventions for the cars varied from unit to unit, and also as these cars had various owners and some of them served 15-20 years or more, they may have had different names.

Seeing as the CO of 14th L.A.M.B, later became CO of A.M.B in India, he may well have taken his personal naming convention with him, hence "Silver" names cropping up there too.

Another example of this is when the Tank Corps took over the MGC(M) cars in Mesopotamia, and later the RAF

Follows a list (incomplete) if cars belonging to No.1 Armoured Car Company (RAF) dating from the thirties - some retain original names and others - certainly the ones beginning with "C" are renamed.

No.4 Section

* Relentless

* Chimaera

* Tigris

* Centaur

* Satire

* Charon

* Jubilee

* Cerebus

* Cheetah

* Cyclops

* Curlew

* Jaguar

No's 1,2 and 3 Sections

* Thunderer

* Buffalo

* Dhibban

* Adder

* Diana

* Avenger

* Astra

* Virginia

* Terror

* Vulture

* Jackal

* Victory

* Bloodhound

* Intrepid

* Explorer

* Vengeance

* Lion

The ones with "command " cupolas come in two types - ones in Mesopotamia with high turret extension originally belonged to 8th L.A.M.B, and the other type I have seen is a small box extension raising the turret hatch (unit unknown). Both these mods were carried out on M.G.C(M) cars at Cammiers, and mark them out as having served previously on the Western Front.

My grandfather was 8th L.A.M.B both in France, Mesopotamia and Kurdistan. I have the maker plate off "his" car, but unfortunately I have no record of it's name.

David

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david murdoch

There is a posibility, that the "Golden" cars also belonged to 14th L.A.M.B - These units were made up of 4 x two car sections. Two other car names listed as 14th L.A.M.B are Gray Terror and Gray Knight. An additional thought on the "Silver" cars - they were all based on Silver Ghost chassis...so fairly logical to name them as "silver something", and so be likely that more cars named this way...not all necessarily in the same unit.

"Terror" which shows up on the RAF list is likely the same car as "Gray Terror". Some of the ship sounding names like Thunderer and Intrepid , may be original names that were inherited with the RNAS cars, and stuck with them all the way through.

David

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Donnie

Hi guys,

My grandads car actually was the "Cheetah". Here is a photo taken of it by him in the early 20's.

Car Pic

Hope this is of interest, Donnie

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RRAC

Donnie,

That's a wonderful photo of HMAC Cheetah. I've gone back through the images that I've come across online and found quite a few more that may be of interest to you. You can see them here:

1939 K Star Regment RAF It is hard to make out the names in this photo, but just compare the details of the items being carried on nearest car to those on the nearest car in the following photo.

1st Squadron, No. 1 Armoured Car Company RAF in Iraq

Crew of HMAC Cheetah, 1st Squadron, No. 1 Armoured Car Company RAF in Iraq

HMAC Cheetah Cheetah is the second car.

Image one from Rolls Royce Owner's Club website

Image two from Rolls Royce Owner's Club website

I would very much like to see more photos of the Rolls Royce armoured cars, if you don't mind sharing them.

Thank you,

Mark

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david murdoch

Here's a battle damaged car (unit unknown) The tire chains were another import from the western front also used in Mesoptamia. Note also wicked looking grapple - possibly used for tearing up telegraph wires, wire barricades ect, rather than pulling out bogged vehicles.

David.

Back end of a Lanchester!

post-446-1212011209.jpg

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RRAC

David,

That's a great photo but I believe that it's a Lanchester, not a Rolls Royce (I'm not 100% sure though due to the battle damage and the fact that these cars were frequently modified in the field). These two types of armoured cars were built for the Admiralty at the same time and share many features.

Here's a photo of a Rolls Royce for comparison:

1918ABTPalestine-WithLawrenceinArab.jpg

Mark

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david murdoch

Mark - my mistake - Certainly more likely a Lanchester, going by the slope of the bonnet. I don't have any further info on this picture. Got any further info on the Rolls LC 0808 you posted?

Cheers David.

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RRAC

David,

The LC^0808 photo is from the book With Lawrence in Arabia by Lowell Thomas. The photo would be from 1918, I should think, presumably taken somewhere in Palestine or northwestern Arabia, as this was the time and place that Lowell Thomas was with Lawrence.

I don't have any information specifying the unit to which this car was attached. One might suggest it's membership in the Hedjaz Armoured Car Section that operated with Lawrence, but it could be a car from another unit entirely that merely crossed paths with Lawrence long enough to have its picture snapped.

Little mysteries like this are what I hope to help clear up. These cars have a fascinating history (precursors to the invention of the tank; close ties to famous personalities like Churchill, Lawrence, the Duke of Westminster, Locker-Lampson, Michael Collins, & etc.; participation in historically significant events from Ireland to Russia to Africa to the Middle East and even China; and their unusually long service - cars built in 1914 were still in front line combat service in 1941, albeit on updated chassis - there are even reports of a few serving into the mid 1950s in Somalia.) These cars seemingly were everywhere during turbulent first half of the 20th Century.

Some time back I exchanged emails with David Fletcher at the Bovington Tank Museum about the lack of an authoritative book on Rolls Royce armoured cars and he indicated that no book was likely to be forthcoming in the immediate future due to lack of interest on the part of publishers. Personally, I think such a book would sell well within its genre and it would have some cross-over interest for Rolls Royce vintage car enthusiasts as well. If I lived in Great Britain near the sources for the necessary research, I might be tempted to take up this project, but as I live in Texas I must content myself with what can be found online or ordered from websites. In this way I have collected electronic copies of about 1000 historic photos of Rolls Royce armoured cars in all of its patterns and have started trying to identify and track units and individual cars. IF SOMEONE OUT THERE FEELS UP TO TAKING ON THE PROJECT OF WRITING THE ROLLS ROYCE ARMOURED CAR BOOK, I WOULD BE VERY PLEASED TO SHARE ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT I'VE PUT TOGETHER - JUST FOR THE SATISFACTION OF SEEING IT DONE -

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I find this glaring gap in the written history of armoured vehicles to be quite sad and think that, with the centennial of the First World War rapidly approaching, it is high time that someone begins putting together this book.

Stepping down from my soap box...

MarkV

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RRAC

Hello,

Here's an excerpt from a spreadsheet that I've been working on identifying specific Rolls Royce armoured cars. It is based on both photographic evidence and written sources and is very much a rough work-in-progress.

In the following list, I've only included those cars for which there is a name (cars identified only by number or physical features are not included here). I have also removed duplicate entries that appear to be the same car identified in multiple sources.

The date field refers to the date for which there is identifying documentation. Few sources list specific dates for the attribution of a name, so most entries in this field are approximate ranges - it is quite likely that the car in question carried the name over a much longer period, possibly even for most of their period of service.

Identified types containing the word "modified" or "mod" indicate the that an earlier pattern armoured body was installed on a newer chassis.

Name: * Date: * Type: * Unit: * Location:

Acasta

Adder * 1935-1937 *unspecified *No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF *Palestine or Iraq

Astra * 1935-1937 * unspecified *No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF *Palestine or Iraq

Atalanta * * 1920 Pattern

Aurora * * unspecified ? desert

Avenger * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF (BEF 1920 6 LAMB) * Palestine or Iraq

Bison * * unspecified

Bitter * 1914 * 1914 Pattern * No. 2 "Duke of Westminster's" Squadron, RNAS * Wormwood Scrubbs, London, England

Bloodhound * 1914 * 1914 Pattern * No. 2 "Duke of Westminster's" Squadron, RNAS * Wormwood Scrubbs, London, England

Bloodhound * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Bulldog * 1914 * 1914 Pattern * No. 2 "Duke of Westminster's" Squadron, RNAS * Wormwood Scrubbs, London, England

Buffalo * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Cambrai * 1937 * 1924 Pattern * 6 Royal Tank Corps, British Army * Egypt

Carisbrooke * 1937 * 1924 Pattern * 6 Royal Tank Corps, British Army * Egypt

Carlow HMAC 1937 unspecified 11 Hussars, British Army Gizera

Centaur *1935-1937 * unspecified No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Cerberus * 1919-1939 * 1914 Pat/Mod * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Charon * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Chatham * 1919-1939 * 1914 Pat/Modified * 1st ACC, British Army (BEF 1920 6 LAMB) * ? desert

Cheetah * 1935-1937 * 1914 Pat/Modified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Chimaera * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Cleopatra * 1920 ABT * 1914 Pat/Modified * 6 LAMB *

Cockatrice * * unspecified * * ? desert

Condor * * unspecified

Conqueror * * 1920 Pattern * RAF * ? desert

Curlew * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Custom House * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 6

Cyclops * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Danny Boy * 1920-1922 * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland RENAMED "Tom Keogh" in 1922, Irish registration # YI 6449, Chassis # 101 WO, Army # ARR 1

Desmond * 1920 * unspecified * 6 LAMB *

Despatch * * 1920 Pattern * RAF

Dhibban * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Diana * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Eagle * * unspecified

Euphrates * * 1914 Pat/Modified * RAF

Ex-Mutineer * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 9

Explorer * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Fighting 2nd * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 3

Flying Fifty * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 10

Golden Eagle * * unspecified

Golden Goblin * * unspecified * * Spoked front Wheel, solid rear wheel 1920 Upgrade

Golden Mank * * unspecified * * Plated front wheel, solid rear wheel 1920 Upgrade

Grand Parade * 1920 ABT * 1914 Pat * British Army * with Norperforce

Gray Knight * 1917 * 1914 Pat * 15 LAMB (later 1st ACC), British Army * Iraq, War in the Garden of Eden

Gray Terror * 1917 * 1914 Pat * 14 LAMB, British Army * Iraq, War in the Garden of Eden

Hawk * * unspecified

Harvester * 1920 * unspecified * 6 LAMB *

Impregnable * 1920 * unspecified * 6 LAMB *

Intrepid * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Jackal * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Jaguar * 1925 ABT/1935-1937 * 1914 Pat/Mod * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Jubilee * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Kilmichael * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 11

Knockananna * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 12

Lion * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Lough Gill * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Republican * Ireland * captured by Republicans July 13, 1922 and RENAMED from The Ballinalee

Moneygall * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 7

Orion * * unspecified * * ? desert

Panther * * unspecified

Python (? - difficult to read in photo) * 1914 Pattern * March 1927 * Mindan, Kurdistan - modified wheels and turret

Ramillies * * unspecified * 4th ACC * ? desert

Relentless * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Renown * * unspecified * 4th ACC * ? desert

Repulse * * unspecified * 4th ACC * ? desert

Revenge * * unspecified * 4th ACC * ? desert

Royal Sovereign * *unspecified * 4th ACC * ? desert

Satire * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Shark * * unspecified

Silver Dart * 1917 * 1914 Pat * 14 LAMB, British Army * Iraq, War in the Garden of Eden, Plated front wheel, solid rear wheels, 1920 upgrade

Silver Fox * * unspecified Plated front wheel, solid rear wheels, 1920 upgrade with command cupola

Silver Ghost * 1917 * 1914 Pat * 14 LAMB, British Army * Iraq, War in the Garden of Eden

Silver Snipe * 1925 ABT * 1914 Pat * 7th ACC, British Army * India

Slievenamon * present * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland Spelling changed to "Sliabh Na Mban", Irish registration # YI 6450, Chassis # 103 WO, Army # ARR 2

Superb * 1920 ABT * unspecified * ? desert

Terror * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

The Baby * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 4

The Ballinalee * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Free State * Ireland * captured by Republicans July 13, 1922 and RENAMED Lough Gill

The Big Fellow * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 8

The High Chief * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 14

The Manager * * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * Army # ARR 5

Thunderbolt * 1939-1942 * 1914 Pat/Fordson * No.2 ACC, British Army * desert WWII

Thunderer * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Tigris * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, No 4 Sect., RAF * Shaibah, Iraq w/ occasional service in Palestine

Tom Keogh * present * 1920 Pattern * Irish Army * Ireland * RENAMED from "Danny Boy" in 1922, Irish registration # YI 6449, Chassis # 101 WO, Army # ARR 1

Vengeance * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Victory * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Virginia * 1935-1937 * unspecified * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Vulture * 1935-1937 * 1920 Pattern * No. 1 ACC, Sect. 1, 2, or 3?, RAF * Palestine or Iraq

Wedding Bells * 1945 AFT? * Indian-built body * HQ Sqn., 1st Armoured Motor Brig. * Bovington Tank Museum, Great Britain

Yellow Wizard * 1922 * 3 Sect, No. 2 ACC * Tullul-el-Baq, Iraq.

P.S. - Thank you Peter for that great link!

MarkV

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Spud Trevor

Hello,

I have an old photo album which belonged to a man serving with the RAF in the middle east in the mid 1920's. Unfortunately the pictures are mainly of tourist sites and the like, but there are some of planes and three of armoured cars.

on one of the pictures there are a number of twin axled wagons with guns on the cab roof. (The soldier suggests these are Morris six wheelers used for wireless and baggage waggons). Next in line are three armoured cars. The armoured cars have a turret with a large roundel on the top. I can't be sure but they look very similar to the Rolls Royce cars pictured above.

Careful examination with a glass suggests one may be called Python, although it is difficult to see. The soldier's labels says the picture was taken in Transjordan. Interestingly there is a picture of a contemporary French armoured car. This is basically the type of car driven by Laurel & Hardy with a couple of machine guns pointing skywards.

Maybe of interest.

Spud

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RRAC

Hello Spud,

I vaguely recall a car named "Python" somewhere, but I don't seem to have it in my spreadsheet. I need to go through my photos again with a magnifying glass and see if I can ID more cars. Also, it has been a while since I went through them all and I may have neglected to enter information about some of the more recently acquired images into my spreadsheet.

Could we see a scan of your armoured car photos? A digital photo might do in a pinch...

Thank you,

MarkV

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yellow

I apologise that I have left this thread so long I understand that this is a rather specialised subject area and I wasnt expecting any replies! Thank you to those who have repsonded so far.

RRAC I wasnt sure if you had these cars in your list?

HMAC Yellow Wizard: 3 Section, Number Two armoured Car Company Iraq Tullul-el-Baq 1922. Appears to have plated front and rear wheels.

TC42: One of the cars of Stuart's and Craig's Detachment at Khartoum 1921. Intereting that these cars were not upgraded from the 1914 pattern?

There are good photos of both of these cars with the Tank Museum at Bovington.

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domsim
David,

The LC^0808 photo is from the book With Lawrence in Arabia by Lowell Thomas. The photo would be from 1918, I should think, presumably taken somewhere in Palestine or northwestern Arabia, as this was the time and place that Lowell Thomas was with Lawrence.

I don't have any information specifying the unit to which this car was attached. One might suggest it's membership in the Hedjaz Armoured Car Section that operated with Lawrence, but it could be a car from another unit entirely that merely crossed paths with Lawrence long enough to have its picture snapped.

MarkV

Hi MarkV

I have copies of the Hedjaz Armoured Car section's (HACS) war diaries and LC 0808 was one of the vehicles operated by that unit, I could go through and make a list for you if you are interested?

This unit operated between Aqaba and the Hejaz railway in southern Jordan in 1918 and moved up to Syria and Lebanon after the capture of Damascus.

Cheers

Dominic

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RRAC

Thank you for the information. I did not have these cars listed. I have "contact sheet" copies of Bovington's Rolls Royce image collection but the resolution is so low that I cannot make out any identifying markings on the cars. Could you post or email a copy of the photos?

With regards to the 1914 Pattern car at Khartoum in 1921, it is possible that this car remained in its 1914 form and became part of the Sudan Defence Force. There is a website for this unit with photos of their Rolls Royces here. There is also a conversation that I had about the transport of at least one 1914 Pattern Rolls Royce armoured car to Sudan, found on the Landships forum here. It may be stretching the "Great War" a bit, but if any forum members are aware of the Rolls Royce's service in Sudan, I'd like to learn more.

MarkV

I apologise that I have left this thread so long I understand that this is a rather specialised subject area and I wasnt expecting any replies! Thank you to those who have repsonded so far.

RRAC I wasnt sure if you had these cars in your list?

HMAC Yellow Wizard: 3 Section, Number Two armoured Car Company Iraq Tullul-el-Baq 1922. Appears to have plated front and rear wheels.

TC42: One of the cars of Stuart's and Craig's Detachment at Khartoum 1921. Intereting that these cars were not upgraded from the 1914 pattern?

There are good photos of both of these cars with the Tank Museum at Bovington.

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RRAC

Hi Dominic,

I would very much like to to see a list of the cars that served in the Hedjaz Armoured Car Section! Notations for any distinguishing names or numbers (or even physical features) would be most appreciated. If you come across references to armoured cars operating with other units, I would appreciate hearing about them as well.

Are any of the war diaries mentioning Rolls Royce armoured cars available online? The UK National Archives has a large number of war diaries online but they do not appear to be searchable and they charge a fee for each diary downloaded, making it a time-consuming and expensive proposition to look for every mention of these cars.

Thank you,

MarkV

Hi MarkV

I have copies of the Hedjaz Armoured Car section's (HACS) war diaries and LC 0808 was one of the vehicles operated by that unit, I could go through and make a list for you if you are interested?

This unit operated between Aqaba and the Hejaz railway in southern Jordan in 1918 and moved up to Syria and Lebanon after the capture of Damascus.

Cheers

Dominic

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david murdoch

Quoting Staffsyeoman 25/2/2003

The Hedjaz Armoured Car Section (later Battery) formed May 17 with 3 Rolls ACs from 10 (RN) Armoured Motor Bty and then reinforced by 2 more from No 1 Bty Light AC Bde in Dec 17. Redesignated Bty when 2 more Rolls of 1 Bty arrived in Jun 18. Disbanded at Suez in Oct 18 and the rump reverted to 1 LACB.

10(Motor Section) RFA also served with Laurence. Formed Aug 17 in the LAC Bde in Egypt, 6 Talbot tenders & 2 Indian mountain guns portee. With Laurence from Nov 17, disbanded Nov 18.

As I recall the cars from 1Bty were sent from Tanzania. Interestingly none were diverted from Mesopotamia.

David.

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Spud Trevor

Hello,

MarkV,

I've managed to take a picture of one of the photographs I mentioned earlier, it isn't the one on which the name Python (I think) can be seen, but it is a better picture of what I believe is the same vehicle. The picture was taken at Mindan, Kurdistan in March 1927. I'm not sure if you can tell the type of armoured car fom this.

Regards,

Spud

post-4284-1212617074.jpg

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domsim

Hi Markv

list of Rolls Royce AC's and tenders from Hedjaz Armoured Car Battery war diaries, the tender with a query is beacuse the only mention of the writing is bad

Cheers

Dominic

Hejaz Armoured Car Battery

Armoured cars

LC336

LC339

LC340

LC0808

LC0809

Tenders

Rolls Royce

LC341

LC1105

LC1298

LC3414

LC1005(?)

Wolesley

LC369

Various Ford cars as well

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RRAC

Spud,

Thank you for posting the photograph! The armoured car in your photograph is a 1914 Admiralty Pattern Rolls Royce. It has the modified turret seen in cars that served in France during WWI and it features NAP (Natural Air Pressure) semi-solid tires on pressed steel wheels, a common modification made to armoured cars serving in India.

March 1927 is a rather late date to see a 1914 car still on its original chassis and sporting the war-time modified turret. It is definitely plausible, however, as the only known surviving 1914 Pattern Rolls Royce (in India) still retains its original chassis and has NAP tires and wheels. One wonders if an entire unit of original 1914 chassis cars was still in operation during the late 1920's or if this and the surviving car in India were rather unique relics. Do your other photos show multiple cars? I would very much like to see them. Every photo has its own story to tell, even if it is similar to one that has already been posted.

Thanks again,

MarkV

Hello,

MarkV,

I've managed to take a picture of one of the photographs I mentioned earlier, it isn't the one on which the name Python (I think) can be seen, but it is a better picture of what I believe is the same vehicle. The picture was taken at Mindan, Kurdistan in March 1927. I'm not sure if you can tell the type of armoured car fom this.

Regards,

Spud

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RRAC

Dominic,

Thank you for the information from the war diaries. Unless a report listing all of the cars and their units for both the Army and RAF armoured cars turns up, war diaries, labeled photographs, and personal diaries are about the only ways to track individual cars.

The numbers are interesting. I have heard that the military may have manipulated the numbers assigned to vehicles and equipment to decieve the enemy, but recent surveys of photographic evidence related to numbering seen on tanks is tending to point to there being an underlying system. Perhaps the numbering of the armoured cars could be informative as well?

There appear to be cars from two distinct numbering series in the Hejaz Armoured Car Battery which points to their originating from two separate units. This agrees with David Murdoc's posting above which stated in part:

"The Hedjaz Armoured Car Section (later Battery) formed May 17 with 3 Rolls ACs from 10 (RN) Armoured Motor Bty and then reinforced by 2 more from No 1 Bty Light AC Bde in Dec 17. Redesignated Bty when 2 more Rolls of 1 Bty arrived in Jun 18. Disbanded at Suez in Oct 18 and the rump reverted to 1 LACB."

This also gives me hope that at some point in their early history the cars in each unit were assigned blocks of numbers, rather than having their numbers assigned at random throughout the force. This could be helpful in establishing the units in which otherwise unrecorded cars likely served. (For instance, if these cars were originally numbered in sequence within a block of numbers, then "missing" cars numbers LC337 and LC338 probably served in the same unit as the identified cars LC336, LC339, and LC340 when the numbers were assigned. - Note that this is just an unconfirmed theory at this point, but it may help provide some leads - comments on this theory are welcome.)

It appears, depending on the dates from the war diary, that if the cars were identified by number as being in the Hedjaz Armoured Car Section before June 18, then 10 (RN) Armoured Motor Battery originally included, at least, cars from the LC336-LC340 series while 1 Bty originally had cars from the series including LC 0808 and LC0809. Of course if the war diary entries listing these numbers post-date the addition of two more cars from 1 Bty on June 18th, then the origins could have been reversed.

Dominic, if I could trouble you a bit further, what dates are associated with the identification of these cars in the war diaries?

Now if we can just connect names to the numbered cars...

MarkV

Hi Markv

list of Rolls Royce AC's and tenders from Hedjaz Armoured Car Battery war diaries, the tender with a query is beacuse the only mention of the writing is bad

Cheers

Dominic

Hejaz Armoured Car Battery

Armoured cars

LC336

LC339

LC340

LC0808

LC0809

Tenders

Rolls Royce

LC341

LC1105

LC1298

LC3414

LC1005(?)

Wolesley

LC369

Various Ford cars as well

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Spud Trevor

MarkV,

One of the other pictures shows three cars in a line along with two Morris six wheelers (the other picture shows two cars). All the cars look the same as the picture posted with the same design of wheels and turrets. So it seems there were at least three cars. The three cars are labelled as pictured in Transjordan.

The cars are really secondary in these pictures taken by the chap, so it is difficult to see any real detail, I'll try and photograph and see if they are worth posting.

I hope this helps,

Regards,

Spud

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