Epsom High Street

[high wood]

I took these pictures in Epsom High Street this morning and it is hard to imagine the scenes that took place there 93 years ago when the Universities and Public Schools battalions of the Royal Fusiliers were there.

[high wood]

Then.

Now.

Then.

[auchonvillerssomme]

What a brilliant set of pictures. thank you for posting them....any more?

mick

[Norrette]

HIGH Wood,

Have you got any high res versions of these postcards - am fairly sure my great grandfather might be amongst them.

Norrette

[high wood]

HIGH Wood,

Have you got any high res versions of these postcards - am fairly sure my great grandfather might be amongst them.

Norrette

Norrette,

if you pm me with your email address I will send you higher resolution copies.

Simon.

[high wood]

PS battalion Royal Fusiliers training on Ashtead Common near Epsom. The 21st battalion was at Ashtead from October 1914 to March 1915.

[high wood]

I have also managed to find an original but unused Third Class Return ticket for "D" Company, 1st Battalion, P.S. Brigade, Royal Fusiliers, signed by lieutenant O Price Edwards, printed at Epsom. It turned up at a carboot sale locally.

[high wood]

A photograph of the 21st Battalion Royal Fusiliers at Randall's Farm, Leatherhead, Surrey.

[high wood]

Reverse.

[Ally Sloper]

High Wood

They are great pictures. You might be interested to know that there was a book called 'The History of the Royal Fusiliers UPS' published by the Times in 1917, which includes some of these photographs.

There is a copy of the book at the Surrey History Centre in Woking.

Ally Sloper

[ianw]

I live in Leatherhead and the Public Schools chaps were well loved by the locals.

I recall a sad story in the "Leatherhead Advertiser" sometime in 1915. A local child had run to the road to see the soldiers march past and was tragically killed when a spring load gate rebounded and struck him on the head.

[high wood]

Ian,

thank you for your reply. Have you done any research into the PS battalions in Leatherhead, either in the local papers or otherwise? Do you know of any PS battalion soldiers who died during training and were buried in local cemeteries? Any local information will be appreciated.

Ally,

I once saw the book for sale on a certain auction site but was outbid. I have never actually seen a copy but will look out for it. Thanks for the reply.

Simon.

The crest from a UPS battalion Christmas card, sent in 1915.

[high wood]

I am not sure that any of the soldiers in this photograph were at Epsom but they were all members of one of the University and Public Schools battalions. I have identified five of the six and have seven candidates for Moore, whose initial seems to have been written using Amharic script.

Three of the six were killed or died of wounds in October 1916 whilst serving with the 9th battalion Royal Fusiliers.

Percy Dudley Elliott. L/Cpl. PS/8308. KiA 7th October 1916. Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Herbert Jeffryes. L/Cpl. PS/8253. KiA 3rd October 1916. Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Harold Ryan. PS/8524. 

Fred Smith. PS/8525.

Moore. (Possibly one of these: George Moore PS/9376, Tom Moore PS/9489, Arthur Moore PS/2981, Harold Moore PS/682 or John Moore PS/3019 KiA.). I have uploaded an enlargement of the signature if anyone cares to decipher it.

Thomas Grey. M.M. Cpl. PS/9500. DoW 18th October 1916. St Sever Cemetery Extension, Rouen.

 

[PRC]

On 10/05/2008 at 17:32, high wood said:

Reverse.

Apologies for taking you back to this old post, particularly if you have already identified the soldier concerned.

The card is a thank-you note for pyjamas and socks from a son Jack to his mothers Mrs. W. Walsh, of 21, Lawrence Street, Preston.

As well as being a name in it’s own right Jack can be used as a ‘diminuitive’ for John & James, (and their variations). And following the social customes of the age the initial W. is almost certainly that of Mrs Walshs’ husband.

A check on google tells me the only Preston in the UK with a Lawrence Street is the Lancashire town. To be more precise it is Fulwood, Preston, Lancashire. Google streetviews shows it as a small terrace house, so this soldier would appear not to be from a monied background – perhaps a scholarship boy?

The occupants of 21 Lawrence Street on the 1911 Census of England & Wales are a Griffiths family, so would appear the Walsh family must have moved there between April 1911 and October 1914 – the likely date of the postcard.

The 1920 electoral register for the area shows a Walter and Eliza Walsh registered at 21 Lawrence Street. While there could be a variety of relationships at play, considering that she had to be over 30 to have gained the vote in 1920, there must be a strong presumption that they are husband and wife.

Assuming they were married in England & Wales, (a BIG assumption), then it would appear to come down to two potential marriages of a Walter Walsh, both co-incidentally in the Lancashire area, in 1883, (Ashton under Lyne District, possible marriage to Eliza Jane Grant) and 1891, (Bolton District, possible marriage  to Eliza Thornley).

The birth of a John Walsh, mothers maiden name Thornley was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Bolton District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1895. Then, as now, you had 42 days after the event to register the birth. The lists then published by the General Registrars then shows quarter registered, which is not necessarily the same as quarter born. Thus a child registered at the start of January could have been born as early as the middle of the previous November.

There is a 6 year old John Walsh, born Bolton, Lancashire, who was recorded living at 23 Cross Omrod Street, Bolton on the 1901 Census of England & Wales. This was the household of his parents Walter, (aged 34, a Spinning Mule Fitter for a Botton Manufacturer, born Bolton), and Eliza, (aged 34, born Bolton). As well as John their other children are Walter, (aged 3) and Emma, (8 months) – both born Bolton.

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales the only parent home at their new address of 23 James Street, Bolton, was the 44 year old Eliza Walsh, born Bolton. She give her relationship to the head of the family as wife, but a different hand has subsequently crossed it through and written “Head”. Eliza states she has been married 18 years and the marriage had produced 4 children, of which 3 were then still alive. Still single and living with her are John, (16, Student & Junior Clerk at a Cotton Spinning Mill), Emma, (10) and Ernest, (7) – all born Bolton. Also in the household is a 38 year old unmarried woman, a cotton weaver called Minnie Thornley, born Bolton. When the census was originally completed the relationship to the head of the family was given as Sister-in-Law. So looks like she’s Elizas’ sister and the maiden aunt of John, Emma and Ernest.

The birth of an Ernest Walsh, mothers’ maiden name Thornley, was registered with the Civil Authorities in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1903.

The most likely match for the father is a 44 year old Walter Walsh, a married Colliery Fitter above ground and born Bolton, who was recorded lodging at Pleasley, Mansfield, Derbyshire.

There are four surviving pages of a discharge record for a John Walsh, born Bolton circa 1894, that look like they might relate. He was an unmarried Clerk at a Cotton Spinning Company, aged 19 years and 8 months and he enlisted in the Public School Battalion at Manchester on the 11th September 1914. This was later amended to the 20th Service Battalion, Royal Fusiliers.

(That would be the 3rd Public School Battalion, but I understand from the Long, Long Trail that four of the Public School Battalions came into being at Epsom on the same date and initially at least trained together.)

His service number was 5892. He was recorded as having been in France from the 14th November 1915 to the 29th December 1916.

He was subsequently posted to the 363rd Reserve Employment Company, Labour Corps, with a new service number 350577.

He was discharged as no longer physically fit for war service as a result of wounds on the 6th October 1917, having been graded CIII at a medical board in August 1917. The wound was a gun shot to the left shoulder, and on discharge his distinguishing mark was recorded as scar on left shoulder. He was shown as aged 23. His intended place of residence was 21 Lawrence Street, Preston, Lancashire.

Unfortunately as his Medal Index Card was prepared at the Labour Corps Records office, the information available is faurly basic. It confirms he landed France on the 14th November 1915, was discharged 6th October 1917, and received the Silver War Badge.

So I think the service part of the above does relate to the man who wrote the postcard – establishing a firm link to the family that came from Bolton would take a bit more work to prove it isn’t just a mix of circumstantial and co-incidences.

Hope that is of interest,
Peter

[high wood]

Peter,

many, many thanks for looking all this information up for me and for taking all the trouble to collate it. I had him down on my database as 5892 John Walsh, Royal Fusiliers, U.P.S. battalion. Enlisted 11th September 1914. To France 14th November 1915. (Brigadier James does not give an exact overseas date for the public schools battalions). Wounded. To 363rd Coy, Labour Corps. Discharged 6th October 1917. Wounds. Silver War Badge number. 284213.

I am in the process of updating my database as new information is now on line and I can resolve many of the unidentified queries regarding the identities of the soldiers in my photographic collection. I will be revisiting many old threads to up date them.

Simon.