K Ronson Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 We are trying to trace information regarding of The Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys) who was born in Chesterfield, and Private Albert Crooks from Featherstone who was in the 6th Battalion of the KOYLI's. They are buried side by side in Dromesnil which is a small village in Picardie. The Mayor is very keen to know about them as well. Albert died in September and Joseph in December. K. Ronson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 You probably have their CWGC info (below) - and maybe another pal can do a SDGW lookup for you: Name: BLAKE, JOSEPH Initials: J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment) Age: 37 Date of Death: 14/12/1916 Service No: 12419 Additional information: Son of Dennis and Bridget Blake, of 50, Soresby St., Chesterfield. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Cemetery: DROMESNIL COMMUNAL CEMETERY Name: CROOKS Initials: A Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry Unit Text: 6th Bn. Age: 31 Date of Death: 03/09/1916 Service No: 24991 Additional information: Son of William Atkin Crooks and Hannah Crooks, of Crossings Green Lane, Featherstone, Yorks. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Cemetery: DROMESNIL COMMUNAL CEMETERY ++ First point I note is that they did not die at the same time, albeit that they are the only CWGC casualties in this cemetery. +++ 1901 Census Cannot easily find Joseph Blake (I wonder if the family may have been from Ireland?) For Albert Crooks - this looks like his family: Name Age Where born Administrative county Civil parish Occupation Albert Crooks 15 Yorks ... Featherstone Yorkshire Clerk Colliery Ernest Crooks 5 Yorks ... Featherstone Yorkshire Juvenile Frank Crooks 12 Yorks ... Featherstone Yorkshire Juvenile George Crooks 2 Yorks ... Featherstone Yorkshire Juvenile Hannah Crooks 38 Yorks ... Featherstone Yorkshire Martha A Crooks 22 Yorks ... Featherstone Yorkshire Housemaid William A Crooks 51 Notts ... Featherstone Yorkshire Clerk Colliery Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 2 May , 2008 Share Posted 2 May , 2008 They both have MICs, and it may be worth downloading them from Ancestry.com as they could carry correspondence info on the rear (not viewable on the NA website). I could not readily see them listed for their service records on Ancestry, but again maybe a pal with subscription could double-check? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 4 May , 2008 Share Posted 4 May , 2008 SDGW has him down as John Blake and died of wounds on 14.12.16 whilst serving with 1st Battalion. His Regimental number suggests enlistment around August 1914. His MIC shows entitlement to VM and BWM only so I guess he arrived in France in 1916. hope that helps cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 4 May , 2008 Share Posted 4 May , 2008 Albert Crooks: SDGW has him down as: "killed in action". He was born at Featherstone and enlisted at Pontefract. Joseph Blake - as per Mike's post above, and can add that he was born and resident at Chesterfield, and enlisted at Derby. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 4 May , 2008 Share Posted 4 May , 2008 Pte Blake is an interesting one as he may also be Pte J Ryan! Pte J Ryan was wounded on Gallipoli with the 9th Bn. Pte J Ryan 12419 is on the Thiepval Memorial and died on 14 december 1916 as did 12419 Pte J Blake. Only J Blake is shown on the Medal Rolls for 9th and 1st Bn John Ryan was born in Chesterfield, enlisted Derby and lived in Chesterfield - died F&F 14/12/1916. Medal index cards - J Ryan got the 1915 star only - Joseph Blake got the VM and BWM. Ryan has theatre of war as Balkans prior to 31/12/1915. He is also mentione din the Derbyshire Mercury 8 Oct 1915 as being wounded in Gallipoli. In 1901 Pte Joseph Blake was a 19 year old in the army. It is possible that he left the army under circumstances that meant he had to enlist under an assumed name in 1914. I believe that Ryan and Blake are one and the same man. They do have separate death certs but as yet I have not purchased these. I have not found a J Ryan birth to fit with this one so far. It is possible that after being wounded Blake owned up to using 'Ryan' as an alias and reverted to Blake in the 1st Bn. Did you get a photo of Blake's grave? Best Wishes Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Ronson Posted 7 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2008 Pte Blake is an interesting one as he may also be Pte J Ryan! Pte J Ryan was wounded on Gallipoli with the 9th Bn. Pte J Ryan 12419 is on the Thiepval Memorial and died on 14 december 1916 as did 12419 Pte J Blake. Only J Blake is shown on the Medal Rolls for 9th and 1st Bn John Ryan was born in Chesterfield, enlisted Derby and lived in Chesterfield - died F&F 14/12/1916. Medal index cards - J Ryan got the 1915 star only - Joseph Blake got the VM and BWM. Ryan has theatre of war as Balkans prior to 31/12/1915. He is also mentione din the Derbyshire Mercury 8 Oct 1915 as being wounded in Gallipoli. In 1901 Pte Joseph Blake was a 19 year old in the army. It is possible that he left the army under circumstances that meant he had to enlist under an assumed name in 1914. I believe that Ryan and Blake are one and the same man. They do have separate death certs but as yet I have not purchased these. I have not found a J Ryan birth to fit with this one so far. It is possible that after being wounded Blake owned up to using 'Ryan' as an alias and reverted to Blake in the 1st Bn. Did you get a photo of Blake's grave? Best Wishes Steve Wow. What a mystery! Thanks for the reply. Yes we have a photo of his grave as we visit it regularly. The Mayor of Dromesnil asked us to find out what we could when he learned that we were researching the two of them at the same time that he was. We met up and the Courrier Picard carried two stories and a picture of us all, putting crosses on the two graves in May 2007. As an aside, we are also trying to find a certain Hugh Murphy of the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Rifles who is buried 3 miles away on his own in Laleu. We have got all of the obvious details from the obvious sources but have met a brick wall when trying to go beyond them. I have a copy of the war diary but there is nothing in it about him (as there isn't of the two men in question) and all sources in Ireland lead no where. Ee know that they are very touchy about Irishmen in the British Army especially post Easter rebellion in Dublin. We feel that there must be more out there about him. We did find that he died of asphyxiation! We have even thought about going to Mountnugent in County Cavan where he was born. Thanks for your reply and for anything else that you might be able to tell us about any of them. Bren and Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 7 May , 2008 Share Posted 7 May , 2008 I believe that the CWGC are also looking into the case. Pleased that Blake (Ryan) has been visited as I have not made it yet. steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted 7 May , 2008 Share Posted 7 May , 2008 Hi I know this is not proof and is probably irrelevant but Denis Blake and Bridget Duigan (Joseph's parents) were both born in Ireland. I can't read mums birth place but it begins with L. Also Josephs brother was called John and he died in 1891. Dad died in Deaths Sep 1886 Blake Dennis 50 Chesterfield 7b394 Mum died Jun 1897 Blake Bridget 52 Chesterfield 7b 386 It is possible that if they are the same man that he has taken a family name? but I don't know who's. Here's some births and I know you've probably checked them out. Births Mar 1871 Ryan John Chesterfield 7b 569 Births Mar 1881 RYAN John Chesterfield 7b 744 Births Jun 1881 RYAN John Chesterfield 7b 687 Births Dec 1890 Ryan John Basford 7b 193 Births Dec 1893 Ryan John Chesterfield 7b 702 There's also a very illegible set of records on Ancestry x 2 Name: Joseph Blake Age: 18 Birth Year: abt 1878 Birth Parish: All Saints Birth County: Derby Document Year: 1896 Number of Images: 13 Reg no 5547 It's very interesting and intriguing Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 8 May , 2008 Share Posted 8 May , 2008 Not sure about interesting Mel - its driving me mad Thanks for the info. From memory Joseph also used John. What records are on Ancestry? Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted 8 May , 2008 Share Posted 8 May , 2008 Hi the records on Ancestry are for the Derby Regiment 1901 he has 2 numbers I can see 1 is 5547 and the other is 5347 It's confusing or not the right man Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 9 May , 2008 Share Posted 9 May , 2008 I will join and get them. It may show that he deserted! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 9 May , 2008 Share Posted 9 May , 2008 I will join and get them. It may show that he deserted! Steve Steve, I can them for you if you want to save a few quid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 10 May , 2008 Share Posted 10 May , 2008 Steve, I can them for you if you want to save a few quid Yes please !! Thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted 11 May , 2008 Share Posted 11 May , 2008 Hi sorry been away for the weekend. Have you got the records? If not I can get them for you but you probably have them by now. They are really hard to read but see what you can see and please let us know. Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Ronson Posted 17 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2008 Yes please !! Thanks Steve We have followed the dialogue with interest. Have you found out anything else about John/Joseph Blake? We are going to Dromesnil next week and will visit the graves of Joseph, Albert and Hugh Murphy. ps We have a photograph of the grave and even one of us from a French newspaper, with the Mayor, putting crosses on the graves in May 2007. Bren and Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 17 May , 2008 Share Posted 17 May , 2008 We have followed the dialogue with interest. Have you found out anything else about John/Joseph Blake? We are going to Dromesnil next week and will visit the graves of Joseph, Albert and Hugh Murphy. ps We have a photograph of the grave and even one of us from a French newspaper, with the Mayor, putting crosses on the graves in May 2007. Bren and Kevin Hello Mel, Bren and Kevin Sorry I did not reply earlier. Mike has kindly got hold of Blake's papers for me. It may take me a while to decipher them though. I have so far - Joseph Blake was Private on 1901 census. I have not yet found a Ryan to fit with details I have. 12419 Pte Ryan served with 9th Bn on Gallipoli and was wounded. His MIC gives the 15 star and he seems to have vanished. He should have got all three medals. 12419 Pte Blake MIC has Victory and British medals. Both men are listed as from Chesterfield and the SDGW details are almost identical - Blake died of wounds and Ryan - died. It seems unlikely that Ryan would be on Thiepval if he 'died' and was not KiA or DoW. SDGW also has John Blake and not Joseph! CWGC has Blake's parents and address - Ryan has nothing. Both men died on the same day whilst serving with the same battalion. The CWGC are also unsure as to whether these men are one and the same. I will get the death certs soon as both have references on the GRO. It may shed some light on the matter. It is either an amazing coincidence or they are the same man. I have added both men to the Nominal Roll in my 9th bn book explaining the above. Steve M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 31 May , 2008 Share Posted 31 May , 2008 The attestation papers for Joseph Blake show him as killed in action on 30/9/1901! Any ideas on where I would look for his death cert? I have recieved the death certificates for - John Ryan and Joseph Blake. Except for the names, they are identical - 12419 Private 1st Bn, Blake Joseph, 31, born England, died 14.12.1916 France , Died of wounds self inflicted 12419 Private 1st Bn, Ryan John, 31, born England, died 14.12.1916 France, Died of wounds self inflicted. The references show that Joseph Blake was registered first - 1916 Volume 1, 44, page 220. Ryan 1916, Volume 1 44 page 307 With all the other pieces of information I have, I am 99% sure that they are one and the same man. Otherwise it is an amazing coincidence. Any comments anyone Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 31 May , 2008 Share Posted 31 May , 2008 The attestation papers for Joseph Blake show him as killed in action on 30/9/1901! Any ideas on where I would look for his death cert? Here's J BLAKE in GRO Natal & S. African Forces Deaths (1899 to 1902): The number 740 on the right is the Page reference. I think this will enable you to order a DC from the GRO in the usual way. 30 September 1901 was the Battle of Moedwil in the Boer War. Here he is listed in the Sherwood Foresters Roll of Honour: http://www.wfrmuseum.org.uk/boerwar.htm This is a fascinating case. I hope you get to the bottom of it! Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 31 May , 2008 Share Posted 31 May , 2008 Thanks Adrian I think that for whatever reason Ryan used his own name with 9th Bn on gallipoli and then went to France with 1st Bn. This means that Ryan should be on the headstone and not Blake!!!! It is though slowly driving me mad steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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