Horse Memorial in Liverpool

[PhilB]

This newspaper report mentions two WW1 horse memorials in Halewood, Liverpool. Have any locals seen them?

It might be possible to identify Capt Edwards, presumably from a local family, and also Capt Wall, which might shed light on the "Battle of Reims"!

[izzy]

a local history book has a passing refrence to a horse that apparently done war service in the great war being buried in the pet cemetery with his medals [the article which im recalling from memory] did not distinguish whether the medals belong to the horse or its owner may be a bit of a tall tale regarding the newspaper article both horses died in 1960 nearly 42 years after the war ended. there are a number of graves at the r.s.p.c.a centre higher road halewood known locally as the horses rest dating from around the 1920's to the 1960's with headstones although iv'e not personally seen anything for a horse i can give you the phone number for the centre to see what they say if they say that there is a grain of truth i can walk up there one day and get you a photograph of the headstone if indeed there is one as the horse may be buried elsewhere on site

[PhilB]

Thanks Izzy. What`s the number?

[daggers]

Picking up on this thread as the same subject is raised today in RootsChat family history forum.

Blackie was the horse of Lieut L.C. Wall of the 1st West Lancs Brigade, RFA, TF (later 275th Bde), kia 9 June 1917 and buried at Lijssenthoek. He was the author of the poem which included the line later adopted as the motto of 55th West Lancashire Division: 'They win or die who wear the Rose of Lancaster'.

I shall visit the site asap and report back.

D

[daggers]

I visited the RSPCA today but could not see the headstone as they keep sheep in the field. The officer in charge thought there was only one stone and offered to email me a photo. More when I hear from them again.

D

[Kitchener's Bugle]

I suspect that the medals may have been awarded to the horse as the cavalry have Traditions in doing such things......

[Ghazala]

Not Liverpool but my favourite horse memorial is at Chipilly on The Somme.

[helpjpl]

Captain Leonard Comer Wall:

MERSEYSIDE ROLL OF HONOUR - Biographies

War Horse Grave 'Blackie' World War One : Page 1 Genealogy RootsChat.Com

JP

[paulgranger]

Not Liverpool but my favourite horse memorial is at Chipilly on The Somme.

'goodbye, old man'

[helpjpl]

Can find only two Captain Edwards on the Merseyside Roll of Honour:

Merseyside Roll of Honour - Biographies

Alfred Cecil Edwards MC, RAMC & Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. Died 25/07/1917

John Stanley Edwards MC, Lancashire Hussars. Died 24/04/1918.

Edwards, John Stanley : Winchester College at War

JP

[daggers]

I called at the RSPCA site yesterday, now run as a dogs and cats shelter, but without horses. I could not take a photo of the memorial as it is in a paddock full of sheep but the staff have kindly sent me some pics. As there was a strong shadow over the stone it is not suitable for posting here but the full text is:

BLACK HORSE
"BLACKIE"
AGED 35 YEARS
A BATTERY 275TH BRIGADE RFA 55TH DIVISION
FRANCE AND FLANDERS 1915 - 1919
AT THE LIVERPOOL HORSES' REST
1930 - 1942

I hope I have not missed anything from the image. Phil, if you see this, do you have the source and date of your original press cutting?

Daggers

[daggers]

A local resident has now 'adopted' Blackie's headstone, cleared undergrowth and cleaned it up. I will try to post one of his photos later.

D

[PhilB]

. Phil, if you see this, do you have the source and date of your original press cutting?

Daggers

`Fraid not, Daggers. But it looks like it`s from the Daily Mail and the date is there on the post.

[daggers]

Thanks

D

[NigelS]

On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 08:09, daggers said:

A local resident has now 'adopted' Blackie's headstone, cleared undergrowth and cleaned it up. I will try to post one of his photos later.

 

Good to see in today's Daily Telegraph (18/12/17)   that this memorial has recently been given a grade II listing: First war horse grave given heritage protection by Historic England

 

Historic England list entry number 1436263 Gravestone of Blackie the war horse

 

NigelS

[charlesmessenger]

On 4/29/2015 at 13:11, paulgranger said:

'goodbye, old man'

I think it the most moving of all WW1 memorials. It is actually that of 58th (London) Division, which fought in the Chipilly area during the August 1918 attack at Amiens.

 

Charles M.

[neverforget]

On 26/04/2008 at 13:21, PhilB said:

This newspaper report mentions two WW1 horse memorials in Halewood, Liverpool. Have any locals seen them?

It might be possible to identify Capt Edwards, presumably from a local family, and also Capt Wall, which might shed light on the "Battle of Reims"!

Came across this yesterday funnily enough:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2017/dec/18/war-horse-grave-and-skegness-gardens-join-historic-england-list

[daggers]

Good to see that the grave will be cared for.

The Telegraph article said that Lieut Wall was from 'Kirkby', but he was from West Kirby, Wirral.  It also described him as a war poet.

He is known for writing one poem, from which came the motto of the 55th (West Lancs) Division, 'They win or die who wear the Rose of Lancaster'.  The whole poem is added below.  Is he known for any other poetry?

 

Daggers

When princes fought for England's crown,

  The House that won the most renown,

     And trod the sullen Yorkist down

        Was Lancaster.

 

                        Her blood-red emblem, stricken sore,

                        Yet steeped her pallid foe in gore,

                        Still stands for England evermore -

                                    And Lancashire.

 

                        Now England's blood like water flows;

                        Full many a lusty German knows,

                        We win, or die, who wear the Rose

                                    Of Lancaster.

 

[It will be noticed that the concluding lines of the verses differ in one particular from the words of the motto.   Wall wrote "We win or die"; the motto reads "They win or die."   The mistake was not discovered until the spring of the following year, but it was too late to make the alteration; the motto by this time was in common use, it had been printed on the Christmas cards, had been painted on all the notice-boards, and had been stamped even in concrete in many dug-outs in and about the line.]

 

[Fattyowls]

Thanks Dags, it hadn't occurred to me that the motto could be contemporary; I thought it would go all the way back to the late mediaeval unpleasantness between the houses of York and Lancaster (won by the last man standing who was Welsh of course).

 

Pete.

 

P.S. For those unfamiliar with the social and economic geography of Merseyside the contrast between Kirkby and West Kirby is considerable.

[Fattyowls]

The motto set in stone.........

 

And the context - 55th Division Memorial, Givenchy. My friend Chris is neither tiny or the memorial enormous, it's a trick of perspective and yet another reason why I shouldn't be let out in charge of a camera without the supervision of a responsible grown up.

 

[daggers]

And another on a divisional history:

[Fattyowls]

Over the midwinter festival period which presumably now can't be named for some months, I just happened to mention to my mate Mike about Blackie the war horse as he has Halewood connections. It turns out he knows a bit about it as this link to his website shows........

 

Pete.

 

P.S. Another thing I didn't know is that the grave of Blackie is next door to Everton's training ground at Finch Farm; as young Bert would say "Who'd of thought it".

Edited 9 January , 2018 by Fattyowls
Grammar of a language other than English - Mandarin Chinese possibly

[PhilB]

That's a pretty comprehensive response, Pete - Thank you!

[Fattyowls]

40 minutes ago, PhilB said:

That's a pretty comprehensive response, Pete - Thank you!

 

That's what I thought when he sent me the link, I've got to sit down and give it the attention it deserves myself.

 

Pete.

[NigelS]

The latest on Blackie's grave from the Daily Telegraph (15th March): Grave of faithful WWI horse Blackie to form centrepiece of housing development 

 

Although it's only a proposal, not sure that the suggested memorial  illustrated, which appears to show a pack  mule/donkey,  is really appropriate to commemorate a horse that was an officer's mount  - no disrespect intended to mules or donkeys they certainly did their bit - unless its intended to be a memorial to all equines that participated in the Great War:  

 

NigelS