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Remembered Today:

Noel Chavasse


paul guthrie

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Am re-reading Ann Clayton's fine biography. He was RAMC, attached to Liverpool Scottish. To be in that unit one was to have parent or grandparents who were Scottish. I understand that did not apply to him but did it apply to officers? Was it adhered to , at least at the beginning, it could not have been later.

Next, his father was C of E Bishop of Liverpool. I have been to the fine cathedral, wish I had known of the Chavasse connection then. What is there that relates to him & family?

Next, they disliked a man who was later a divisional chaplain, one Copp. The nearest church to Bishop's Palace was St. Catherine's where Copp was pastor but they attended St. Saviour's instead. Why does a Bishop & family attend a church other than his own cathedral.

Bit of a mixed bag here, thanks.

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Sure was, that was a typo. As you know his twin was a chaplain & there is mention he did not want to serve in the division where he was senior.

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My Godmothers father 9391 Pte.William Dixon was accepted into the Liverpool Scottish and acording to my Godmother had no Scottish connection at all.( Of course he may have been economical with the truth )

The Rev J.O.Coop not only compiled the History of the 55th West Lancashire Division but also wrote a book called " A Short Guide to the Battlefields" published in the 1920s.

He visited France after the war to try and mark the ,otherwise unrecorded graves of soldiers of the 55th Division( With it appears little success )

I have to say the obvious dislike of Coop by Noel Chavasse which comes through in Ann Claytons book is surprising

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Why does a Bishop & family attend a church other than his own cathedral.

Paul,

I am open to correction on this, but I believe that technically the cathedral belongs not to the bishop, but rather to the Dean and Chapter of the time. The bishop may have his kathedra or seat there, but the building is not in his charge. The bishop has to look after the whole of his diocese, which involves a considerable amount of travelling around and visiting. His family may have decided that rather than worship in a different church each week, they would select a convenient local parish church and make that their family base.

Regards

Michael D.R.

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I may be mistaken but didnt Bishop Chavasse start the process of the building of Liverpool Cathedral and therefore he couldnt attend services there during WW1 and before because it hadnt been built.

I am sure I will be corected if I am wrong

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The building of Liverpool Cathedral was the key note of Chavasse's episcopate in Liverpool.

There was a lot of dispute in the C of E at that time over the conduct of public worship and the ornamentation of Churches (a Royal Commission had enquired into it in 1904) which was well represented in Liverpool.

Chavasse was determined to have nothing in the cathedral that would upset anyone. He was tough on this in a very gentlemanly way, but it made him enemies on both sides. There were also some who thought, sometimes bitterly, that it was not the best use of money.

I would suspect he had to choose his Church attendance very carefully in order not to be seen to compromise his impartiality. The issue with the Chaplain may have been fall out from this.

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I remember the start was 1909, complete in 78? so I bet you are right, probably no services there at the time. Quite a building. There has been much work done on the builders but do not know if there is much on Chavasse family.

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The Lady Chapel was dedicated 1910, Cathedral consecrated 1924 though fully completed much later. Noel's parents are the only persons buried there in Founder's Plot, memorial to Noel & Aidan who lie in Flanders.

As many of you know Noel was in a CCS after being wounded the last time which was commanded by VC & Bar Martin-Leake and there was a distant by marriage relationship to NZ Captain Upham VC & Bar WW2.

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  • 1 year later...
The Lady Chapel was dedicated 1910, Cathedral consecrated 1924 though fully completed much later. Noel's parents are the only persons buried there in Founder's Plot, memorial to Noel & Aidan who lie in Flanders.

As many of you know Noel was in a CCS after being wounded the last time which was commanded by VC & Bar Martin-Leake and there was a distant by marriage relationship to NZ Captain Upham VC & Bar WW2.

Hi Paul,

Just searching through Chavasse posts on the site as I wanted a definite answer to how Noel Chavasse VC & Bar was related to NZ Captain Upham VC & Bar from WW2. I heard that his daughter married Charles Upham - is that true? I doubt it as your post above says the relationship was 'distant by marriage'.

In fact, can anyone give me the definitive answer to this question? I am doing a quiz for a battlefield group I am taking to Ypres and could do with the correct answer!

Many thanks

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Charles UPHAM's aunt (by his marriage to Mollie McTamney), was the wife of a second cousin of Noel CHAVASSE.

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Guest wrinklyone

Yes, Paul, Ann Clayton has written a fine biography of NC. Some years ago I visited Liverpool Cathedral and asked a steward where NC's father was buried, but he couldn't tell me. The name Chavasse has been used several times in the city, but not for anything directly connected.

It appears from Ann's book that St Peter's, Oxford might be more fruitful - 'something of a memorial to the Chavasse family'.

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Some good background information can be found at www.chavasse.u-net.com

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Heres a picture taken back in April of this year. The cemetery my first ever visited (cwgc) was a small quiet affair at the back of some houses, whose occupants had a small wall dividing them from the dead.

A nice quiet resting place but not alone.

regards

Arm

post-741-1129202090.jpg

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CHAVASSE FAMILY

Some ten yeard ago I heard on the radio of Chavasse twins reacing the age of 100.

As the name is rather unusual it struck me that these two old women micht be related to the VD-winner.

Is there any truth in this?

All the best,

Fred

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.

As the name is rather unusual it struck me that these two old women micht be related to the VD-winner.

I assume you mean VC? No one really wants VD! ;)

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Fred

It was 1986 and the twins, May and Marjorie, were the younger sisters of Noel and Christopher.

May died later that year whilst Marjorie lived to the age of 103.

Here's the family in the 1891 census. The "girls" are shown as Edith & Mary. I'm not sure at which point they became May and Marjorie :)

post-1356-1129215674.jpg

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Stephen,

Thanks for your answer. I have often wondered about the sisters.

Sorry for my poor typing: VD instead of VC indeed!

All the best,

Fred

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In the interest of restoring the balance here is a tribute to Canon Coop: :blink:

Canon James Ogden Coop DSO MA VD KHC

Chaplain to the Territorial Army

Died at home in Liverpool: 2nd June 1928

An Appreciation by General Sir H S Jeudwine KCB KBE

‘The sudden death of Canon Coop removes from our ken here a true soldier priest and most lovable man, whose promotion leaves a sore gap in the hearts of all who knew him. A volunteer, and later a Territorial Chaplain for many years before the war, he mobilised in 1914 with the West Lancashire Division, and when it was assembled in France in January 1916, as the 55th West Lancashire Division he became its Senior Chaplain, a post he held until remobilization in 1919.

His spirit and influence not only permeated his own department as evidenced by battle casualties - 4 Chaplains killed, four wounded and two missing. – but was felt throughout the whole Division, which owed much to his devoted work in its interests. He was ever at the call of its sick and wounded, and the difficulties often attending decent burial of the dead nether daunted him. To a high sense of duty and keen religious feeling he added a common touch, and his broadmindedness, modesty and sincerity enhanced a simple unfailing eloquence which went straight home, though his pulpit might be a packing case or limber. By his brother officers ‘the Padre’ was greatly beloved; his good humour was proof against the most searching chaff, and his optimism was gay and infectious. His pride in his Division was immense, and he wrote the story of it after the Armistice. It was as Senior Chaplain of the 55th Division that the writer first met Canon Coop, and was privileged to be admitted, during the more than three years war comradeship that followed, to a lasting friendship with him. On demobilization Coop returned to his parish at St Catherine’s Abercromby Square, Liverpool, and was transferred the following year to St Margaret’s Anfield. At both of these Churches he gathered around him congregations whose numbers and earnestness were evidences of his compelling though unpretentious personality and power for good. He took an active part in the formation of the Divisional Comrade’s Association, and as Chairman of its Executive Committee up to the time of his death was largely responsible for its administration and for the relief of distress amongst it members.

Nothing could have shown more clearly than the scene at his funeral the estimation in which he was held by all classes. The Cathedral was thronged by clergy and soldiers who had worked and fought with him, and by those to whom he was endeared as a pastor and friend. The military procession which escorted his coffin for some two milies to the Cathedral passed through dense crowds, filling some of the poorest streets of the city, whose silence and reverence was most striking. He earned the Territorial Decoration for long service, and was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for his record in the war. In 1926 he was appointed on the King’s Honoury Chaplains, the first Territorial, it is believed to be so honoured.

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