Died in Ireland

[chrisharley9]

Mike

can you remind me of the circumstances behind this one please; did you submit the case yourself or through IFCP

Chris

[mikebriggs]

Chris

You mentioned him on the first page of this thread and I wondered if you were 'still on the case'.

I have just been researching the circumstances of the kidnap and came across this thread (I haven't done anthing else)

cheers

Mike

[chrisharley9]

Mike

have just reviewed this thread. Green did not go forward due to the lack of a DC. If you could send me his service record I would be very happy to deal with it on your behalf

Chris

[mikebriggs]

Thanks Chris

Will do so. In meantime here is an official War Office letter to his widow (but no DC in file)

[mikebriggs]

My mistake, here it is

[chrisharley9]

Mike

I have sent you a PM

Chris

[CarylW]

In the book Britain Between the Wars 1918-1940 :Charles Loch Mowat, there is quite a bit about the Irish situation

Did a search of CWGC and this forum/thread to see if this man had a mention but did not find

I was wondering if it were possible, given his long history of working with intelligence, that he was still an intelligence officer for the British? From the following it does sound as if he was on an intelligence mission and it was maybe the reason he was targeted by the I.R.A. ?

This is from a section on 1920:

The activities of the I.R.A. consisted mainly of ambushes, attacks on police barracks, raids upon the mails, kidnappings and murders

A few examples will suffice. On March 28 an elderly Englishman, Alan Bell was taken off a tramcar in Dublin while on his way to work and shot dead in the street; with a long experience in intelligence work, Bell had been brought to Dublin to make inquiries through the banks concering the Dail's finances.

Caryl

[CarylW]

Just bumping this up. Does anyone know anything about Alan Bell? (previous post)

[chrisharley9]

Caryl

everything points to non miitary status at the time of his death. The newspaper reports I can find all refer to him as a magistrate

Chris

[CarylW]

Thanks Chris. Just thought I'd ask, appreciate it. Might be hard to prove anyway if he was in intelligence, I understand many were asked to destroy documentation post Great War and after this time period in Ireland

Caryl

[Peter Mc]

Chris/Caryl - you're right, Alan Bell was not a military man, he was a retired RIC officer and Resident Magistrate with extensive forensic skills and was re-employed to undertake some very special investigations, including looking into the financing of Sinn Fein. It was his skill at his job that got him shot. True that he was employed by the Director of Intelligence at Scotland Yard but again no military connection. Buried in Deansgrange Cemty, Dublin.

[CarylW]

Thanks for that Peter. That just about rounds it up. I hadn't realised that Scotland Yard were involved in intelligence operations back then, assumed it was military

Caryl

[corisande]

I hadn't realised that Scotland Yard were involved in intelligence operations back then, assumed it was military

I was just going through this thread looking for clues to "undercover" men. Anyone that has followed my recent threads on men like Parcell Bowen, and A P White will see the difficulties in seeing whether they were serving or not.

My chart for who was responsible for agents in Ireland looks like this

There were at least three different groups of "intelligence" men sent to Ireland, which make intelligence work even more difficult than it might have been.

My understanding is that "Thomson's men" were as they say "ethnic Irish" and were deep undercover, but were still serving officers. For example, I think (but cannot prove yet) that Angliss murdered on Bloody Sunday was from this group. He is commemorated

The undercover men are very difficult to prove were serving - they all appear to have resigned their commissions, then been offered jobs in Ireland and were taken back on the books. Some of the files are actually annotated "do not Gazette" for their "special appointment"

If anyone has names of British officers (and these men were always officers) who were shot in mysterious circumstances on the street in Ireland, let me know and I will try to check them out. Bowen is a classic case of such an undercover man found dead in the street.

[corisande]

I put together some notes on Bell.

He was 62 when he was killed, and was probably working for Secret Service, and not army. AS far as I can see, he never was even in the army. So there is virtually no possibility of him being recognised by CWGC.

A couple of events from his past came up

1 Republican literature says that he first appeared as an assistant to Jas. E. French, "chief of the English Secret Service in Ireland" in the 1880s

2. Republican literature also says Bell was the secret agent of the London Times during the Piggott forgeries' case, in which Piggott confessed he had been bribed to forge the handwriting of Parnell so as to involve Parnell in treason

3. After Bell's death Constable Harry Kells of B Div., DMP, was executed by Collins squad for identifying suspects in Bell's death.

[CarylW]

(had a notification of reply here)

Fascinating stuff Corisande, as are the other threads about Parcell Bowen and A P White, such a lot of research. I can understand the reasons for Bell's non qualification for CWGC status and the difficulties trying to research these men

I noticed on the thread about Parcell Bowen that it might be helpful to you to find surviving relations of Bowen and I notice that you did check all the online boards on Ancestry, Rootschat and GenesReunited and didn't find anyone actively researching the family but I wonder if puting a letter in the local Camarthan newspaper in the area where he was from might not yield results? I've found this to be a very fruitful method for finding relatives and aquaintances for my own research and when researching for other people and have had replies from people who although not actively researching the family history, may be able to add to the picture and give you more details. In one case when I did this, it was picked up by a local radio station who noticed my letter in a local rag appealing for information and found the story interesting and devoted a section of a programme to it yielding even more results.

I see that Myrtle suggested a similiar thing. Don't use an online version of a newspaper for an appeal, write to the snail mail address of the letters pages and have the letter printed in the actual paper itself and older people who may not have internet access may spot your request, this is what I've found more than once

I've also noticed that in some cases where others have put a letter in appealing for information the local papers themselves become interested in the story

Caryl

[corisande]

I see that Myrtle suggested a similar thing. Don't use an online version of a newspaper for an appeal, write to the snail mail address of the letters pages and have the letter printed in the actual paper itself and older people who may not have internet access may spot your request, this is what I've found more than once

I know you are both right about this. It is a combination of inertia (I live in an online world) and the feeling that there is something more around the corner - for example if Parcell Bowen is accepted eventually by CWGC then there is more of a story for a local paper

At the moment I am waiting for developments eventually with CWGC and that shoud smoke out any local descendants (if there are any)

[roughdiamond]

Hi Guys

I have some more info on Capt Chambers who was abducted and Murdered along with Capt Green and Lt Watts, I was looking for some info on him because someone has his medals and was looking for info in this thread: -

http://1914-1918.inv...0&gopid=1533465&

I found this newspaper repord on his abduction: -

Coatbridge Officer Kidnapped in Ireland

Sinn Feiners Threatened with Reprisals

"Vengence will be Sure"

The following notice was posted in several parts of Cork city during the early hours of Wednesday morning.

"If Capt Green, Capt Chambers and Lt Watts are not released unharmed within 48hrs , leading members of the Irish Republican Army will be suitably dealt with. Ignore this at your peril. Vengence wil be slow, but it will be sure."

The note refers to 3 Officers kidnapped at Waterfall on Monday 15th November, and taken to an unknown destination. Despite active enquiry, no trace of the Officers has been obtained.

Information comes from Cork that the Capt Chambers is Capt Stewart Chambers, who's home address is 53 Colt Terrace, Coatbridge. Capt Chambers was a Reservist who at the outbreak of War , was recalled to the Colours and served with the R.A.M.C. in France. His devotion to duty was recognised by his superiors , and it was with regret that he was transferred to a combatant unit, 3rd King's Own Loyal Lancasters. With that Bn he served for over 2 years and during that period he was wounded 4 times. His ability and zeal earned him favourable notice from his officers and he was sent home to qualify as an officer. Shortly before the Armistice, he was gazetted as a Lt to the King's Own Liverpool Regiment, and subsequently was sent to Ireland for duty in the Education Corps at Cork in the Irish Command. It was while serving at Cork he fell into the hands of the Republicans.

Captain Chambers in early life passed the preliminary examinations of Glasgow University, and intended to qualify of the medical profession. He was esteemed by his army colleagues as a man of much intelligence and the conspicuous capacity which he had shown had led to his being sent for duty in the Education Corps. His own regiment The Liverpools is presently doing duty in Egypt.

Inquiry made yesterday elicited that no further information has been received as to the whereabouts of the missing officer. Naturally his relatives are seriously perturbed and anxious at the contretemps but the hope is still entertained that beyond temporary incarceration nothing untoward will happen to our gallant townsman.

Sam

[chrisharley9]

Sam

thanks very much for the added info. Always nice to know about the man himself

Chris

[Guest colmdoyle]

Im living in Glenville Co.Cork and only heard the story of VINCENT, SEYMOUR LIVINGSTON the other night in the Local.

while looking on the net for more information i came across this forum. well done to ye all for the work ye are doing.

i also know members from the Irish Great War Society who would be prepared to help if there was some commeration to be arranged.

heres another story with a link to the Hudsons of Glenville

ROCHE, JOHN.

Rank: Lance Corporal.

Regiment or Service: Irish Guards. Unit; 2nd Bn.

Age at Death: 20.

Date of Death: 07-12-1915.

Service No: 6334.

Born in Templemore and enlisted in Clonmel. Died of wounds. Supplementary information; Son of Martin and Kate Roche, of Lower Pike St, Thurles, Co. Tipperary. Letter from his Commanding Officer to his Mother; ‘Madam I very much regret that your son 6334 Lance Corporal Roche J of No 15 Platoon, No 4 Company, 2^nd Bn, Irish Guards was shot on December 3^rd by a German Sniper. I regret to say that the wound was a serious one being in the head but he showed great pluck about it and there seems to be every chance of his recovery. Your son was operated on the evening of the 3^rd inst at Merville Hospital and Father Knapp of this Regiment visited him and reported to me that the operation had been entirely successful, his pulse, heart and temperature all being good. I ask you to please accept my sincere sympathy for you in your trouble, and I can also assure you I feel his loss very much in my Company, as apart from his congenial disposition, and his very plucky character, he was a most promising non-commisioned officer, and would have undoubetedly have done very well. I only hope he may have a speedy recovery. I am yours very truly, D. Hudson-Kinahan, O. C. No 4 Coy, 2^nd Bn, Irish Giards B. E. F. France.

To Mrs Roche, Thurles. December 10^th, 1915.

Dear Madam, I deeply regret to have to report to you that your son, 6334 Lance Corporal J. Roche, died from his wounds on December 7^th, not having recovered consciousness after his operation. He was buried on the following day and a cross.

[chrisharley9]

Hi Colm

Thanks for your kind comments; nice to John Roche got a marked grave

Cheers

Chris

[corisande]

Perhaps some one can help me with this chap

Signaller G Bowden died aged 10 in a series of 6 retaliation killings in Cork on 28 Feb 1921

A full newspaper report on the Military inquest which says a bit about him is is on this link

But the short list also shows him

What is odd is not that he is not on CWGC but also I cannot find an Irish GRO record for his death, the other men do appear on the GRO.

I suspect that he is not on CWGC because there is no death cert, in which case I assume that he was registered under a different name on the Irish GRO, either a spelling variation or he signed up under an alias. He may even be on CWGC under a different name

I should add that Beattie is on Irish GRO as a death but not on CWGC. His death is given as John E L G Beattie which looks a bit out for a humble L/Cpl, and there may have been Intelligence at work here. Though his father was a rural postman

And Whitear is on Irish GRO, but I cannot find him on CWGC

Can anyone help, he may have been looked at before

[BrendanLee]

He is also listed as being remembered in a memorial service held in The Royal Hospital Dublin. He appears on the list as Sig. Bowden G. H. 6^th Div. Sig. Co.

[corisande]

a memorial service held in The Royal Hospital Dublin.

I was going to come onto that list later, but as you raise it now, do you know apart from the list of people commemorated on the Irish Times list, what was the criteria for being included on it. Some of the names do not appear in the Irish local papers during the War of Independence.

Can you or anyone put up or email me the original list in Irish Times?

[John_Hartley]

Nobody obvious in CWGC with that date of death and being an engineer.

[corisande]

Post 115

I read that two soldiers of the Essex Regiment were executed and buried in a place called Kilbree near Clonakilty.I was wondering if anyone knew the names of these two men and were the bodies ever recovered,the link does not supply a date but does say they were found wandering the streets of Bandon looking to dessert but were then found to be spies by the I.R.A.The story is under the heading John L. Sullivan.

This seems to be true

It is in John L. O'Sullivan CURIOUS JOURNEY: An Oral History of Ireland’s Unfinished Revolution, by Kenneth Griffith and Timothy O’Grady,. He claims to have guarded the two men, and to have dug their graves.

Now all during this time, the two others, the fellows who said they were deserters, were being held here in this house, my house here. They stayed here during the day and we had to shift them to another place at night. One of them was only nineteen or twenty and the other was older, maybe thirty or forty.... And we got on well with them too. We used to play cards with them at night. ..So arrangements were made. Well they [The 3 IRA men] went to the rendezvous and they were immediately pounced on by a section of the Essex Regiment. And they were given a terrible time, before they were shot through the head...Then after this murder of our people the order came through that the two prisoners were to be executed. They knew too much .. They were shot there, anyway, the two of them together and buried on the spot....

The deserters set up a meeting with an Essex Sergeant and when the 3 IRA men got to it were captured. The IRA men were - Captain John Galvin, Lieutenant Jim Begley and Section-Commander Joe Begley were surprised by soldiers from the Essex regiment and shot dead. 3 Dec 1920. This is verifyable

That leads one to Tom Barry - Guerrilla Days in Ireland which has the same story He says he interviewed the 2 deserters on 25 Nov 1920 (Thurs before Kilmichael) . Barry wanted to get into Bandon Barracks in force and remove all the guns. So he set up a meeting with an Essex Sergeant via a letter from one of the deserters, said to be the deserters brother. Barry says The two British spies (from the Essex Regiment) were brought to Kilbree, Clonakilty, and there they were executed.

They appear to have died soon after 3 Dec 1920 - probably around 4 to 7 Dec. The bodies were buried, and the British, as far as I can tell never "owned up" to the deaths of thee two men - it was not in their interests to do so. And Barry was never a man for naming shot men or saying where they were buried - he was later Liaison Officer during the Truce

Someone with a detailed knowledge of the Essex history may have a list of Deserters or Missing men to see if we can get closer to solving this