Died in Ireland

[bmac]

Terry,

Thanks for the update. Will keep an eye open as relatives keen to hear more.

Bill

[chrisharley9]

Good news

Chris

[FenianRam48]

I've been wondering about the awards given to soldiers (and any given to Auxies or Tans) during the Irish War of Independence. I see Piley and Chris here mention MBE, (medal of) OBE, and parchment certificates. Firstly, what were parchment certs, and secondly does anyone know if there were any police awards given to members of the BEF then serving in Ireland as a Tan or Auxie?

[Peter Mc]

police awards given to members of the BEF then serving in Ireland as a Tan or Auxie

Not sure what you mean by the reference to the BEF but a number of awards of the Constabulary Medal (Ireland) were given to members of the Auxiliary Division and also to non-Irish recruits (Black and Tans) of the RIC. One award of the KPM was given to to the Shangai-born adjutant of the Auxiliary Division.

[Guest pete-schneider]

Hello,

My name is Peter Schneider, a 19 year old Australian. In attempting to find more information as to the whereabouts of Seymour Vincent i stumbled across your forum and was absolutely overwhelmed and ecstatic with the information i received. My Grandmother, Rosemary Ferrier is the niece of Seymour and happens to be his only direct descendant. Seymour didn't conceive any children and only one of his sisters had children (my great grandmother Joyce).

We are extremely excited and desperate to hear more information about his commemoration and history as we have long lived unaware and curious. How would i be able to get in contact with somebody who has this information????

My email address is pete-schneider@hotmail.com and if somebody could please please please relay any information that they have about Seymour Vincent and his commemoration then my family would be completely thankful. Was his body relocated? What happened in accordance with his commemoration?

Anything please.

I would also like to forward my sincere gratitude to those of you who were involved with Seymour's case. The hours of work that you have dedicated to him and our family are forever appreciated. I hope to hear from somebody soon.

Yours sincerely,

Peter Schneider.

[chrisharley9]

Peter

drop me a pm & I will let you know everything I have on him

Wont be able to deal with it at the moment as Im on holiday

Chris

[Guest pete-schneider]

Chris,

Firstly, thankyou for your response and i hope that your holidays are spectacular. I'm sorry but i am unsure as to what a 'pm' is. I am, for some unknown reason, unable to access your email address. Would it be a hassle if i attained this for communication purposes? I am eager to find anything at all in regards to Seymour. My email is listed above. If you manage to find anything at all and forward it to my email address it would be enormously appreciated.

Again, thank you very much for your time.

Peter

[bmac]

Chris, Sean et al,

I have now been contacted by another family member of 2nd Lt Vincent. They are clearly well distributed around the globe - Australia, South Africa, UK - and mostly seem to think they are the only direct descendants. Email addresses have been passed on to all concerned so that the family can contact one another for the first time in what seems like many years.

Clearly the fate of Seymour Livingston Vincent has been a dark shadow lurking in the corner and it is good to help shed some light on this and direct them to his believed final resting place.

Bill

[chrisharley9]

Well to me this seems what finding the non commemorateds is all about - giving closure to the families after many years

Chris

[irishmen1916]

Chris, Sean et al,

I have now been contacted by another family member of 2nd Lt Vincent. They are clearly well distributed around the globe - Australia, South Africa, UK - and mostly seem to think they are the only direct descendants. Email addresses have been passed on to all concerned so that the family can contact one another for the first time in what seems like many years.

Clearly the fate of Seymour Livingston Vincent has been a dark shadow lurking in the corner and it is good to help shed some light on this and direct them to his believed final resting place.

Bill

Has there been any move on a headstone ?

Peter

[chrisharley9]

Bill

there is a possibility that CWGC may accept the NOK details from the relatives dependent on the evidence they can provide

Chris

[Guest cousin dan]

The Summer 2007 issue of "the Irish Sword" reports an Investiture at the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin on 12 July 1921 where about 50 Officers and men were awarded the Most Excellent Ordr of the British Empire. It was held by Gen. Macready on behalf of the King.

An example of one is Sgt Frank Poole, MM, Essex Regiment

"Sgt Poole displayed great gallantry in leading a party of young soldiers in an action on 19th March 1921. He also made repeated attempts to bring in a wounded officer lying in an exposed position, under heavy fire."

The material is held under WO 35/181

Hi

My great grandfather was Sgt Frank (Francis) Poole of the Essex Regiment. My Uncle (Sgt Poole's grandson) put me onto this website. We have grandads medals framed along with the citation of where he was presumed missing in action.

As I am unfamiliar with this site or how it works I would appreciate advice as to how to find the material "held under WO 35/181. I can be reached on my mum's email at katharina.amsat@gmail.com

Thankyou

Daniel

[Peter Mc]

Hi Daniel

you may have known this already but the medal was for his part in the Crossbarry ambush of 19 March 1921 - for a brief overview see: The Crossbarry Ambush

[David_Underdown]

To read the info on file start by looking at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...erence=WO35/181 you can either visit The National Archives at Kew in person, or there's info on the website on ordering digitised copies or engaging a researcher.

[Arnhem44]

Chris,

Please find attached work I have done on the Essex Regiment, I have tried do this for as many Regiments as possible, as we both know it will never be complete as even the Regimental Museums admit it being " a black hole" in their Histories

Dvr. Baker RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21

5999515 Cpl W. Brigden Crossbarry 19/3/21

5999394 Pte. S.R. Cawley Crossbarry 19/3/21

5999393 Pte. J. Crafer Crossbarry 19/3/21

Lieut. Dixon 2nd Suffolk (attach. Essex Regiment.) Ballinhassig 22/10/20

M/16554 Pte. W.A. Gray RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21

Capt G.T. Hotblack Wounded Crossbarry D.O.W. 20/3/21

5999062 Pte. J.A. Knight Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21

52203 L. Cpl. T. Maddox Bandon 26/7/20*

5998780 L/Cpl R. Madell Courtmacsherry 14/5/21

Dvr. Martin RASC (attach Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21

5998619 Pte. C.W. Reid Ballinhassig 22/10/20

Lt.Gurth Alwyn Richardson RAF (attached Essex Regiment) Newcestown 10/10/20

Lt R.D.F. Robertson Newcestown 10/10/20

5998780 Pte Francis William Shepherd DOW Bandon 14/5/21

5998205 Pte S.W. Steward Crossbarry 19/3/21

5999140 L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs Kidnapped & Executed Bandon 23/2/21

5998377 Pte. F. Vince 1/3/21

M21/20487 A/Sgt Watts RASC (attached Essex Regiment) Crossbarry 19/3/21

Pte Wilkins Crossbarry 19/3/21

Kind regards,

Simon

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this,I happened to come across this thread and you guy's have a considerable knowledge on those killed in Cork.I came across this link some time ago and read that two soldiers of the Essex Regiment were executed and buried in a place called Kilbree near Clonakilty.I was wondering if anyone knew the names of these two men and were the bodies ever recovered,the link does not supply a date but does say they were found wandering the streets of Bandon looking to dessert but were then found to be spies by the I.R.A.The story is under the heading John L. Sullivan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/history/rende...sses/wh01.shtml

[Peter Mc]

Somebody may have a more precise answer but the only thing that springs to mind is when two soldiers of the Cameron Highlanders were seized near Bandon (Dec 1920) in very similar circumstances - looking to desert. They were interrogated but not executed, in fact one of their number, known as Peter Monahan, joined the local IRA unit and was their explosives expert before being killed at Crossbarry.

I may be totally wrong in this particular instance but some of these stories are much embellished. It may have served someones purpose to describe a man as a soldier, which serves to legitimise the murder, when in fact he may have been no more than an itinerant. There were cases of such shootings, often of strangers to a locality, and sometimes wearing ex-army overcoats. They were nervous times for all concerned but be aware of the 'spin' later put on to justify events.

[Arnhem44]

Somebody may have a more precise answer but the only thing that springs to mind is when two soldiers of the Cameron Highlanders were seized near Bandon (Dec 1920) in very similar circumstances - looking to desert. They were interrogated but not executed, in fact one of their number, known as Peter Monahan, joined the local IRA unit and was their explosives expert before being killed at Crossbarry.

I may be totally wrong in this particular instance but some of these stories are much embellished. It may have served someones purpose to describe a man as a soldier, which serves to legitimise the murder, when in fact he may have been no more than an itinerant. There were cases of such shootings, often of strangers to a locality, and sometimes wearing ex-army overcoats. They were nervous times for all concerned but be aware of the 'spin' later put on to justify events.

Thanks for the reply Peter,I had spotted the names of two soldiers on the list above as being Kidnapped in Bandon and executed,just wondered would these possibly be the men in question.I believe Tom Barry's book mentions this incident as having happened but I do understand what your saying about some stories been embellished.

Brendan

[Peter Mc]

Thanks for the reply Peter,I had spotted the names of two soldiers on the list above as being Kidnapped in Bandon and executed,just wondered would these possibly be the men in question.I believe Tom Barry's book mentions this incident as having happened but I do understand what your saying about some stories been embellished.

Brendan

You may be referring to Private J.A Knight and L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs both kidnapped and killed 23/2/21.

However after a bit of digging I'm now more sure that your original query is pertinent to the murder of 3 boy musicians of 1Bn / The Manchester Regiment who broke out of barracks and were later shot at Kilcrea on 5 June 1921. See The Museum of the Manchester Regiment.

Boy Carson was 18; Boy Chapman 17, and Boy J Cooper only 16. All are buried in Ashton-under-Lyne.

It may be worthwhile someone digging out the IRA justification for these killings......

[west coast]

while not having any knowledge of this case , i might suggest that it was probably the so called tit for tat killings that were prevelent of that time and indeed later.

mike.

[chrisharley9]

Name: STUBBS, HERBERT LESLIE

Initials: H L

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment/Service: Essex Regiment

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 23/02/1921

Service No: 5999140

N.B.: This casualty has been recently accepted for commemoration by the Commission. However, it will not be possible to add his name to this Memorial immediately. Please contact the Commission before planning a visit, for more information.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Addenda Panel.

Memorial: BROOKWOOD (UNITED KINGDOM 1914-1918) MEMORIAL

His grave has been found subject to confiration from CWGC

Charlton Cemetery, Section C 2nd Gen Grave number 627

I will give a quick warning here. If this thread degenerates into the right or wrongs of the Ireland situation it will be swifty closed. It only exists to find the non commemorated casualties of the Great War which for the purposes of the CWGC continues until 31st August 1921

[Peter Mc]

I have a cutting from the Irish Times dated 7 Sep 1990 which reports on the body of a man found in a bog in Tipperary. According to local historians he was kidnapped in County Tipperary, possibly in January or February 1921, tried and shot dead at the place where his body was found at Turaheen, outside Rossmore.

The man's clothes were completely intact and comprised a tunic, greatcoat and cap with the Lincolnshire Regiment badge.

It seems unlikely now that he was police; but the locals believe his name was Thomas Kirby and was in his 40's. It might be that this man was not a soldier at all, or even a deserter, but maybe Lincs Regt experts may have some clues as to missing men from around that period.

[chrisharley9]

Peter

will see what I can track down on him. Does the cutting mention what became of the body

Chris

[Peter Mc]

Chris

it only says that they were looking to give him a Christian burial, presumably in the local churchyard. I haven't followed up on him other than to ascertain he wasn't police. The name Kirby may be misleading also as this was again a local assumption.

[chrisharley9]

Peter

have done a full search of the Times for the period nothing of note has turned up

Chris

[mikebriggs]

Chris/Peter

I can add a bit about Kirby from Tadhg Dwyer's witness statement:-

“Towards the end of 1920 it became clear to us that the British forces were getting information concerning the houses and places frequented by men on the run. An ex British soldier named Thomas Kirby was suspected of spying and he was ordered to leave the area. He joined the British forces and returned to the barracks in Dundrum, from where he guided the enemy forces in their nightly prowls for wanted men. Although he disguised himself whenever he was out of the barracks with enemy parties, he was soon recognised. Then one night he ventured out alone and was followed and captured in a public house at Ballybrack near Annacarty where he was drinking. He was tried by court-martial and could give no satisfactory explanation of his movements. To the charge of spying for the enemy forces he pleaded insanity. He was sentenced to death and was executed by a firing party. Before his death we brought a priest to him, who anointed him and gave him all spiritual aid. We buried him up in the hills near Ballybrack. Kirby’s execution took place on or about the 8th January. 1921.”

[bureau of Military History, 1913-21; Document No. W.S. 1,356]

Kirby served with RIR 1898-1900 but was discharged as a 'harmless lunatic'.

Its most likely that he was wearing a Lincs great coat and hat because at the time of his killing the Lincs Regiment had a small number of men stationed in Dundrum Police Barracks.

Chris - Is there any news on Captain Montague Green's commemoration? I have a copy of his service record. Apparently even by 1926 his widow was requesting information from the Dominions Office for information on his death/burial and there was correspondance between the Dominions Office and Dublin as to the whereabouts of several missing Officers. Perhaps she declined to submit information to CWGC (if that was possible).

cheers

Mike