Died in Ireland

[Sean.]

Hi,

I have just recived notice from the GRO here in Ireland that they could not find records for the deaths of Capt Green died Cork 17th Nov 1920 or 2nd Lt S L Vincent died Fermoy May 1921.

I have attached a photo of the grave marker of Lt Vincents grave at Glenville Churchyard. The grave is outlined by a stone kerb, there is no headstone and his name is inscribed on the kerb,

Regards,

Sean

[bmac]

I have now heard more and now know:

1. He was unmarried

2. His mother was a Mary Pither

3. His middle name of Lewington was his great grandmother's surname and his grandfather's middle name

4. Another relative is researching his side of the family and Margaret over at Genes Reunited is contacting him to see what other information may exist and whether there is a direct relative who can be contacted about the commemoration.

Onwards and upwards!

[bmac]

Sean,

I have sent on copies of the grave and the one you emailed me of Glenville Church to his relatives. Hope you don't mind.

Bill

[chrisharley9]

Im really impressed with how this one has panned out - thanks to Bill & Sean for their hard work

Whoever arranged the burial of Lt Vincent showed a lot of courage considering the political situation of the time

Chris

[Sean.]

Hi Chris,

Yes a good result on this one, In relation to his re-burial a powerful family in the Glenville area where the Hudson Kinahan's, they lived in the Manor House at the time and had done for nearly two hundred years.

One of the documents that Bill found was a letter from E H Hudson Kinahan to a cousin of Lt Vincents in which he says that he had been in contact with the local men who confirmed that Lt Vincents body was buried in the bog and that arrangements could be made to have him re-buried in his local Churchyard.

The letter was signed E H Hudson Kinahan, he was 6o years of age at the time, was the 2nd Baronet and had served as a lieutenant for ten years in the 21st Hussars, it appears that he had started the re-buriel process, he died himself in 1938 and many of his family are buried next to 2nd Lt Vincent.

Regards,

Sean

[chrisharley9]

Sean

nice to see this info

Chris

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Although this topic seems to have gone quiet of late, I have been undertaking some further work on the subject in connection with the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry in Ireland 1919-1923, and have noticed an anomaly insofar as many of the serving soldiers killed during the so-called "Troubles" were not commemorated as war dead, whereas members of the Auxiliary Division of the RIC were often treated as serving soldiers and buried with full military honours. For example, Captain P.Graham, formerly of the Northumberland Fusiliers, who was murdered in the ambush near Macroom on 28 November 1920, is buried beneath a standard CWGC type headstone in Abingdon Cemetery. Regrettably, it appears that officers were treated as fallen warriors, whereas other ranks - often from the poorest families in the land - were ignored.

[Terry Denham]

Capt Graham appears to have been a serving officer in the Northumberland Fusiliers and hence his commemoration by CWGC.

Do you have evidence that he had left the military?

[Neil Clark]

I have an interest in these matters because in the past I have made certain representations to the Commission concerning Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) who are recorded by the commission as soldiers! They were in fact serving RIC officers when killed and FORMER soldiers. I have identified a few other men on the CWGC indexes who come into this category.

In the past I have had considerable help from Stanley C Jenkins who is probably one of only a few REAL experts on the RIC that I know of.

With regard to P.N GRAHAM, look at this link - http://www.kentfallen.com/PDF%20REPORTS/GL...PEAL%20CWGC.pdf

and here - http://www.kentfallen.com/PDF%20REPORTS/GLEAVE%20J.C.pdf

The Commission were going to investigate the circumstances but rather than put matters in order and record ALL RIC men who were killed in similar circumstances they wanted to look into the possibility of supressing P.N Graham and the other identified men from their indexes! I was dumbfounded! I appealed to them to leave matters as they were....

It makes me sick that British soldiers are commemorated whereas RIP officers who died alongside the soldiers are totally ignored. It is unfair but I don't blame the CWGC because they only operate within the resrictions of their Royal Charter. The organisation to blame is the modern BRITISH POLICE SERVICE who allow this situation to happen. I have made many written representations to various forces (sorry Services) without result. It would appear no one gives a toss about these fallen heroes...

When I wrote to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (or is it the Northern Ireland Police Service?), I never even got a reply! Goes to show how insincere that lot are...

I'm a member of the Police Roll of Honour who do try to remember these fallen officers as best as they can. My chap (James Gleave) laying in a small rotten decaying grave in Wye has his name recorded but nothing is being done about the state of his headstone!

JOHN MORECOMBE has in the past had some good results with similar Irish military casualties who were forgotten. Have a look at his excellent work here - http://www.cwgc.co.uk/

John has identified a few Irish casualties who were killed in the troubles and all now have commemorations. Perhaps we could combine our efforts to have all these RIC properly honoured? Chris Harley needs to be included too because he has an interest in these matters too...

PLEASE DON'T ROCK THE BOAT WITH P.N GRAHAM OTHERWISE HIS COMMEMORATION WILL GO! But YOU are right Stanley, he was a serving RIC officer when he fell and NOT A member of the armed forces. God knows how he came to be commemorated as a serving member of his former regiment...

All the best

Neil

[chrisharley9]

Neil

I agree that all of the RIC lads deserve some kind of commemoration - obviously the UK police forces are not interested - perhaps the way to go on this one is with the governments of NI & the Republic as part of the reconcilliation process - otherwise the other way to go could be a memorial at the National Memorial Aboureteum - the B Specials have a memorial there & they can be considered a political hot potato - so nothing is impossible - I personally think an approach to the Home Office would be in order - I do however agree that the CWGC is not the place for this

Re P N Graham I think the commpassionate way to deal with this is to leave it as it is or his grave becomes a non world war grave in the care of the Commission

Chris

[Carmania]

There is a memorial to the RIC in the form of a tablet in the Crypt of St Paul's Cathederal. It was unveiled on the 23rd May 1939 and bears the following inscription:

IN MEMORY OF THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY AND OF THE OFFICERS AND MEN WHO FELL IN THE DISCHARGE OF DUTY DURING THE EXISTENCE OF THE FORCE AND IN THE GREAT WAR 1914 - 1918

However I also believe that a more 'public' commemoration is long overdue.

I'd like to thank the contributors to this very worthwhile topic for their efforts.

Aled

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I have carried out some random checks of the RIC Auxiliary Division casualties and it seems that the "anomaly" I referred to is not as pronounced as I had initially feared - most of the RIC cadets are not commemorated, although it could be argued that they deserve to be remembered.

Regarding the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry in Ireland I have produced the following list of 16 casualties, some of whom died in accidents or of illness, while others were shot by the IRA. The list includes rank, name, number, date of death and place of death.

Private D.V.Bayliss 27862 30-07-1920 Oola

Lance-Corporal G.B.Parker 47297 30-07-1920 Oola

Private A.Spackman 5373641 18-11-1920 Cratloe

Private H.Morgan 5374617 22-02-1921 Woodford

Private W.S.Walker 5374675 22-02-1921 Woodford

Private D.J.Williams 5373002 22-02-1921 Woodford

Private M.Robins 5373574 02-03-1921 Fermoy Hospital

Lance-Corporal M.Hudson 5373689 12-06-1921 Tulla

Lieutenant R.C.Warren MC n/a 28-06-1921 Limerick Hospital

Private Joseph Baker 23801 01-05-20 Victoria Barracks Cork

Private A.Stonnell 9700 04-08-20 Limerick Workhouse

Bugle Boy S.Pegler 5373974 18-08-20 Limerick Hospital

Private A.Williams 5373728 01-01-21 Ballyvonare

Private F.C.Curtis 5373986 03-02-21 Nenagh

Private W.Wiggins 5373116 05-03-21 Limerick

Private Fordham 5373745 24-09-21 Dublin

Ten of these men were commemorated by the CWGC, but six were not so treated. I have, however, discovered that Messrs Walker. D.Williams and Robins are now being commemorated, but Private Stonnell, Private A.Fordham and Private W.Wiggins do not yet appear on the CWGC list of war dead.

[Neil Clark]

Good work Stanley. I will P.M you now regrding getting something done about these casualties. I will also ask John Morecombe to take a look bearing in mind he has had a number of similar men approved...

Neil

[stevem]

Hi Stanley

Stonell is commemorated:

STONELL

Initials: A G

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 04/08/1920

Service No: 9700

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 91.

Cemetery: LIMERICK (KING'S ISLAND) MILITARY CEMETERY

Regards

Steve

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Yes, I have now found 9700 Private Stonnell, so that leaves just Private W.Wiggins and Private A.Fordham as the uncommemorated members of the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry in Ireland. As a matter of interest, Private Stonnell is said to have been "accidentally killed" in Limerick, but there are no other details. He came from Sussex and had served in Mesopotamia throughout the Great War.

[chrisharley9]

Stanley

well done

Chris

[Piley]

Stanley

well done

Chris

All,

Everytime I am looking in Liverpool/national papers I always copy casualties for Ireland, have done so for over 15 years, this is a copy from the Liverpool Weekly Post Saturday August 14 1920

There is a photo of Pte Daniel Baylis, with the Headline KILLED GUARDING GENERAL LUCAS, below his photo it states:

" Private Daniel Baylis, 1st Battalion Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry, one of two soldiers killed while guarding General Lucas, after his recent escape from Sinn Feiners.

I have tried to upload image, but it is too large to upload.

Simon

[Neil Clark]

Simon,

I'd imagine that Stanley would be interested in that article. If you can just compress it down to webpage size. Or email it to me here - clarkneil@hotmail.co.uk and I will post it for you. Is this chap commemorated by the Commission or not? If yes then thats good if not then it warrants further investigation as a possible non-com. Good work!

Neil

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

The Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Chronicle records that the two men killed in the Oola ambush were 42797 Lance-Corporal G.B.Parker and 27862 Private Daniel Verey Bayliss of the 1st Battalion, while the injured included privates Snelling, Cornwall and Steer. General Lucas, who had been captured by the IRA while on a fishing holiday near Fermoy, managed to escape and reach the safety of Pallas Green RIC barracks. It was decided that he would be given a lift in a Crossley tender manned by Private Bayliss and his colleagues, but the IRA did not know that he was aboard when they ambushed the vehicle.

In its obituary notice, The Chronicle recorded that "Lance-Corporal Parker was the son of Mr and Mrs Parker of 24 Park Street, High Wycombe; he was only twenty years old at the time of his death, and had eighteen months service, having served with the 43rd in North Russia. Private Bayliss, who was the son of Mrs Bayliss of 7 George Street, St Clements, Oxford, had enlisted in the 43rd Band as a boy at the end of 1916, and was just eighteen when he was killed".

Both men were commemorated, Lance Corporal Parker being buried in High Wycombe Cemetery, while Private Bayliss was interred in Rose Hill Cemetery, Oxford.

[Peter Mc]

Interesting posts on a subject close to my heart. Here's one Auxiliary who never made it back home, but is apparently not quite forgotten...

Cadet C J Guthrie C Co. ADRIC

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Cecil Guthrie was badly wounded in the Kilmichael ambush but he managed to escape and asked for help in a remote cottage. Unfortunately, the cottage was being used by IRA men, who shot the wounded Auxiliary with his own Webley revolver and then threw his body into a bog.

In 1926, The Irish Free State Minister of Home Affairs interceded with the IRA on behalf of the Guthrie family, and the missing man's remains were disinterred and handed into the care of the Church of Ireland for Christian burial. I understand that the victims of the Kilmichael ambush were commemorated in the Church of Ireland church at Macroom, although there are rumours that the memorial has been taken down.

It has been said that Cecil Guthrie was one of the very few "Black & Tan" to have been buried in Ireland - this may be worth further investigation.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

We have discovered that 5373116 Private Walter Jones, alias Private Walter Wiggins, one of the two non-commemorated members of the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry who died in southern Ireland during the "Black & Tan" campaign, expired in Limerick Workhouse (then in use as a barracks) from "a self-inflicted wound". Could the fact that he had committed suicide explain why he was not commemorated? In this context, were there any other reasons why a man might not have been commemorated - for example if they had committed a serious crime?

[Terry Denham]

Stanley

It would not explain non-commemoration. A serving soldier qualifies for commemoration provided he died within the qualifying dates no matter what the cause of death - suicide, accident, murder, execution etc. There is no reason why a serving soldier, sailor or airman would be uncommemorated if they died between 04.08.14 - 31.08.21 inclusive. There are plenty of suicides and criminals in the CWGC list.

This does not include any man who had been officially declared 'a deserter'. Deserters were classified as having left the armed forces with no intention to return. The death of a deserter would not qualify. However, someone who was only declared AWOL would still qualify.

[bmac]

Terry,

Any further news on Lt Seymour Livingston Vincent's commemoration?

Bill

[Terry Denham]

Bill

Vincent has been accepted by CWGC/MoD but the case is still completing the procedures (headstone checking etc).

I will post an In From the Cold when all is completed and he is added to the database.