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chrisharley9

Died in Ireland

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Terry Denham

Chris

Could you prepare a definitive list of those you think may be non-coms when you think you have them all as it will be better to ask CWGC all in one go rather than have several names fired at them seperately.

Cheers.

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chrisharley9

Terry

will do

Chris

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chrisharley9
21121920.png

From the Times of 21 Dec 1920

This give us Lt S B Brown RGA

Name: BROWN, BERNARD LOFTUS

Initials: B L

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery

Unit Text: 26th Heavy Bty.

Age: 24

Date of Death: 01/11/1920

Awards: M C

Additional information: Son of Albert Loftus Brown and Mabel Kathleen Brown, of "Holme," Chatsworth Rd., West Norwood, London. Educated at Dulwich College (O.T.C.) and Royal Military Academy (Woolwich), March, 1915.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Memorial: HOLLYBROOK MEMORIAL, SOUTHAMPTON

I think this is our Lt Brown

Chris

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chrisharley9

Having consulted with Terry the only man mentioned so far who has not been submitted to the CWGC for recognition is Captain M H W Green 3rd Bn Lincolnshire Regt who probably died along with Captain Chambers & Lt Watts on 15th Nov 1920

Wondering if there is anyone in Ireland who could look out the DC for me please

Chris

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Sean.

Hi Chris,

I have been watching this thread with great interest, I will contact the GRO to search their records for Captain Green's death cert, it takes about ten days,

Regards,

Sean.

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chrisharley9

Sean

top man - thanks very much

Let me know how much I owe you

Chris

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Sean.

Chris,

Not a mention of money, all in a good cause.

Waterfall is in my area so his death may be registered here in Cork, could take less time.

Regards.

Sean

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chrisharley9

Sean

absolutely brilliant - you are very kind

Anything I can do please let me know

Chris

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ollydot

At a talk last night about 16th Irish Div and the guy giving the talk produced a book which I THINK is a record of the CWG sites/graves in Ireland (republic bit). This was published recently by the Irish government. Dave O'Brien is the speakers name and he is from the Dubs Association. He's sending me a copy of the book and I'll have a better chance to see what it contains when it arrives. Only got a brief glance last night. It might be worth while investigating what it contains. He's been working hard to get the graves and soldiers recognised, you can maybe contact him through Dubs website, and he might have lots more info. Really great speaker by the way.

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chrisharley9

Ollydot

thanks for the info - could you give the link to the site please

Chris

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bmac

Chris,

I don't know whether this officer's story is of interest/relevance. He is not on the CWGC. I found this in his personal file at the NA whilst researching an update on my 56th Division book. The officer's name is 2nd Lt Seymour Livingston Vincent, originally of the 1/13th London Regt (Kensingtons). He was evacuated from Le Havre on 5th July 1916 suffering from shell shock and shrapnel wounds to the right foot and left arm. He returned to France in May 1917 and served in Salonika with the 82nd Company, Machine Gun Corps.

This is the rest of his biog from the book:

2nd Lt Seymour Livingston Vincent, 1/13th London Regt. (Kensingtons) was born in 1890 and lived in Loughton, Essex. He was seconded to the 168th Machine Gun Company on 16th March 1916. He died in strange circumstances in May 1921. He had been transferred to the 2nd Brigade, RFA, in December 1920 and had been serving at Fermoy, a small town in County Cork. He had applied for a transfer to the Army Educational Corps, before the war he was a teacher, and had then asked to resign his commission. He then disappeared without trace on 23rd May 1921. It was not until an anonymous letter was sent to the British Government in June 1924 containing details of the burial of a British officer in Lenihan’s Bog, Glenville, Co. Cork, owned by one Dan Hickey, “the notorious reble (sic) farmer”, that further investigations took place. At the time of his disappearance the Colonel commanding the 16th Infantry Brigade based at Fermoy basically accused Vincent of lying about his intentions of going on leave but, within a week, another report, regretting several errors in the first, was issued which noted that Vincent had appeared somewhat disorientated before going on (approved) leave. It went on to report that five days after he left, three members of the 2nd Brigade of the IRA raided Fermoy Station and, breaking into the office there, had stolen various items from Vincent’s luggage, including a service revolver. Although the Royal Irish Constabulary were informed nothing was ever discovered about his whereabouts. It is thought that he, and possibly another man, were murdered by the IRA and buried at Lenihan’s Bog. Vincent’s body was later re-interred in Glenville Church.

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chrisharley9

Bill

looks a good case to me - could you give the file ref if possible - will check the Times Archives to see if there is any details there

thanks for the info

Chris

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bmac

WO 374/70654

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chrisharley9

Bill

cheers

Chris

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Sean.

Hi Chris,

Could not locate Capt Green's DC localy so will have to wait for the GRO search.

Along with the three men who were taken from the train at Waterfall, a Lieutenant Goode (army schools inspector) was also ordered off however he was released on the platform and watched as the three men were led over a footbridge to a nearby field where they were shot and buried. (very sad end, it hurts to even type the words).

In relation to Bill's post re 2nd Lt Vincent, I have added his name to the list for the GRO search in case he too turns out to be a non com. I also contacted the rector at Glenville Church who recalls a soldier buried there without a headstone, but he could not recall his name, I will be meeting with him over the next few days.

Regards,

Sean

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chrisharley9

Sean

wonderful info thanks very much mate

I know the hurt - have seen too many of my mates dead

Checked the Times Archive this afternoon for Vincent - no results Im afraid

Chris

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bmac

Chris,

I have some jpgs of some of the contents of Vincent's file if of any use/interest. Largish files (1-2Mbs) so will need to email.

PM if you'd like them.

Cheers

Bill

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ollydot

Chris

Here are 2 sites might be of interest:-

www.royaldublinfusiliers.com

www.greatwar.ie

Good hunting!!

Evelyn

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Northern Soul
Having consulted with Terry the only man mentioned so far who has not been submitted to the CWGC for recognition is Captain M H W Green 3rd Bn Lincolnshire Regt who probably died along with Captain Chambers & Lt Watts on 15th Nov 1920

Chris

Chris,

I don't know whether this adds anything to your files but Green's MIC indicated that he was dead.

Andy.

post-754-1211456571.jpeg

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chrisharley9

Andy

thanks mate - another piece to add to the puzzle

Chris

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chrisharley9

The files that Bill has sent are absolutely fascinating & I believe that they provide all of the evidence required for recognition by the CWGC - will be forwarding them to Terry this evening

Chris

In relation to Bill's post re 2nd Lt Vincent, I have added his name to the list for the GRO search in case he too turns out to be a non com. I also contacted the rector at Glenville Church who recalls a soldier buried there without a headstone, but he could not recall his name, I will be meeting with him over the next few days.

Sean

all the docs forwarded to me by Bill seem to indicate a burial at Glenville

Chris

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Sean.

Hi Chris and Bill,

Yes I agree a fantastic paper trail which shows that he was to be buried in Glenville church yard.

The papers that Bill found including the letter dated June 1924 telling of his buriel place in the bogland proves that he was abducted and killed.

The rector who holds the buriel records for the Fermoy area (glenville falls within this area) is on leave for about 4 weeks, however I will be going to the churchyard tomorrow to have a look at the unmarked grave.

Regards,

Sean

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chrisharley9

Sean

yes it is wonderful stuff - if this thread just gets one man in from the cold it will be worth it

Chris

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bmac

I'm waiting keenly for the results of the twin investigations on 2nd Lt Vincent. If either objective are achieved, even better both, it will be one of the most satisfying pieces of research I've done and the timing of reading this thread a few day's later almost perfectly serendipitous.

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chrisharley9

Bill

I dont know about you but I believe there is an outside force guiding us

Chris

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