The Swagger Stick

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Apr 22 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Froggy, are you saying that, technically, a pace stick has one open setting while a drill stick has variable open settings?

Just a thought - pace/drill sticks never seem to come up at auction. What markings might they bear? Ordnance? Regimental?

The original pace sticks could only open to one setting, like a pair of calipers. So many 'paces' set the interval between guns (depending on spread of the calibre at optimum range ) with no equivocation. These sticks were stout (robust) and often had round ends in either brass or ivory. I am not aware if they were ordnance marked.

The 'drill' pace stick was a later derivation designed by the infantry (seemingly and inevitably Foot Guards) and can be set to separate settings for different 'paces' (Rifles and Light Infantry and Heavy Infantry Quick March and Slow March). These latter sticks are often made to order in both 'light weight' (competition) and standard weight patterns, but are not to my knowledge issued by the MOD, as I have never seen one with a crow foot and most WOs/SNCOS have told me they bought their own.

[daggers]

Tales of pace sticks: Mons OCS 1951, RSM Brittain invariably carried one, but what did he do when on his strengthened bicycle?

CSM Huxley MM, Grenadiers, (now at Chelsea Hospital) tired of seeing a cadet making a repeated nonsense of some drill movement, dashed the foot of his pace stick against the ground, and one of the highly polished ferrules broke off. This must be the nearest to tears any Brigade of Guards warrant officer has ever been, despite his wartime MM and impeccable bearing. He was not the same man until his stick returned from wherever they mend such items.

Sorry if this is off topic, but the RSM was, just, in WW1.

Daggers

[centurion]

Ergo - there is very little evidence that 'swagger' sticks were carried by officers before WW1, they carried canes or sticks instead (of varying sorts) and invariably of walking length. True 'swagger sticks' were a Victorian invention for the express use of soldiers and it is ironic that their use did not pass to officers until the demise of full dress and walking out dress uniforms during WW1. I would be delighted if you could show a photograph of 'swagger sticks' (as opposed to canes) carried by officers in the period before 1918.

You didn't read my paragrph properly. I said that the stick carried by Col Nathan Whiting in 1758 and by a Sgt major in the Buckinghamshire Militia in 1798 were short sticks! These were in fact about the same length as this sticks carried by Victorian soldiers and look very similar. Unfortunately the camera was not invented then but if you look on pages 198 and 150 of volume 3 of Lawson's History of the Uniforms of the British Army you will see the sketches he made from the original paintings/plates and refrences to those original sources

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (centurion @ Apr 22 2008, 07:01 PM) You didn't read my paragrph properly. I said that the stick carried by Col Nathan Whiting in 1758 and by a Sgt major in the Buckinghamshire Militia in 1798 were short sticks! These were in fact about the same length as this sticks carried by Victorian soldiers and look very similar. Unfortunately the camera was not invented then but if you look on pages 198 and 150 of volume 3 of Lawson's History of the Uniforms of the British Army you will see the sketches he made from the original paintings/plates and refrences to those original sources

I note what you say and will look out for the illustrations to which you refer with interest. That said I have quite a library of book on British uniforms (well illustrated), though sadly not with me, and have seen no sticks that are short and carried under the arm until the Victorian period. In any case sticks of the 1700s were most certainly not 'swagger sticks' and were used for specific purposes relating to the period concerned (including, as I recall striking soldiers occasionally and positioning them without the laying on of hands). De facto 'swagger sticks' were a Victorian invention and that is well documented.

So ingrained were they in the public consciousness that they were virtually synonymous with being a soldier. A whole generation of young men who either volunteered, or were called to the colours 1914-16, went through a rite of passage by having their photos taken in SD, often (and as displayed so regularly on this site) with a swagger stick, even though such sticks were hardly an essential item of war for a mass mobilisation. Most poignantly of all, the sticks are often incorrectly held by young men who have barely had time to learn how to fire a rifle, let alone assimilate the niceties of military carriage and deportment. These short sticks are invariably in the hands of other ranks (ORs) and rarely, if at all, will you see them carried by an officer, who instead carried a stick of walking length. A review of pictures posted over the last 3-4 months will admirably bear out what I have said.

[centurion]

For officers carrying such sticks pre WW1 see this photo taken in 1905. All three offficers had such sticks

Stick

[centurion]

De facto 'swagger sticks' were a Victorian invention and that is well documented.

Where?

[squirrel]

Er the photo shows the gentlemen in question with riding crops.

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (centurion @ Apr 22 2008, 08:39 PM) For officers carrying such sticks pre WW1 see this photo taken in 1905. All three offficers had such sticks

Stick

You are in danger of making yourself look obdurate. Those are riding crops, as I had already made a point of emphasising in post #18.

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (centurion @ Apr 22 2008, 08:42 PM) Where?

In period newspaper adverts (Harrods, Army & Navy etc) and photographs, music hall posters and flyers, military accoutrement adverts (Pollard & Co, Hobson & Sons and many others), private photos, cigarette cards, collectors silk pictures, military posters and prints (especially Gale & Polden and Simkin), magazines and periodicals, including children's, museums both civilian and military, antiques fairs, bric a brac shops. The list is long and I have been observing them as a collector for 38 years. Simply collecting WW1 B&W post cards (photos) of soldiers bears out what I have said.

[centurion]

In period newspaper adverts (Harrods, Army & Navy etc) and photographs, music hall posters and flyers, military accoutrement adverts (Pollard & Co, Hobson & Sons and many others), private photos, cigarette cards, collectors silk pictures, military posters and prints (especially Gale & Polden and Simkin), magazines and periodicals, including childrens, museums both civilian and military, antiques fairs, bric a brac shops. The list is long and I have been observing them as a collector for 38 years. Simply collecting WW1 B&W post cards (photos) of soldiers bears out what I have said.

Yes yes yes BUT this only proves that swagger sticks were used extensively in Victorian times (which no one disputes) not that, as you stated the Victorians invented them and were the first to use them " De facto 'swagger sticks' were a Victorian invention and that is well documented" at the risk of appearing obdurate I reapeat where?

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (centurion @ Apr 23 2008, 04:16 PM) Yes yes yes BUT this only proves that swagger sticks were used extensively in Victorian times (which no one disputes) not that, as you stated the Victorians invented them and were the first to use them " De facto 'swagger sticks' were a Victorian invention and that is well documented" at the risk of appearing obdurate I reapeat where?

Lets put it another way, you see if you can find/demonstrate usage of 'swagger sticks' (short, thin canes with ferrules and knobs/tops, carried under the arm, or swung in the hand, and not capable of resting on the ground when held in the hand - see enclosure), by officers prior to the 1920s. I am satisfied with my own research, if you are not please feel free to prove me wrong. As regards your wording "this only proves that swagger sticks were used extensively in Victorian times". That is NOT what I said, you have left out the fact that they were used also in Edward VII and (early) George V times also, but not generally, by officers, as is clear from my comments in this thread.

[Muerrisch]

The 'drill' pace stick was a later derivation designed by the infantry (seemingly and inevitably Food Guards) ...........most WOs/SNCOS have told me they bought their own.

Don't you just love it ....... Food Guards! Thats how they get to be Queen's Company!

New Sticks can be purchased at several emporia, all you need is £131.

http://www.dancraft.co.uk/2pacesticksdancraft.htm for example.

An aquaintance of mine was a WO at Sandhurst before being commissioned. By trade Signals.

When he left Sandhurst, he was presented with a pace stick with spring-loaded aerial ...... it had pride of place in his entrance hall.

[JulianB]

Here is my grandfather photographed in early 1915. Whilst the top of the "stick" doesn't look like the usual nickel / silver ferrule with badge on I don't know the length !!

However, I agree, I've never seen a photograph of a 1st WW officer with any kind of stick "other" than a thin walking cane (or riding crop).

There are two others which I now have; one from the 1930s (I have a photo of him with it) which was definately the short one with regimental ferrule at the top (although the badge was out of date by the 1930s)

The other is the standard leather wrapped one but in this case it clicks open to reveal a blade ! - so best keep quiet about that ! I assume that is 2nd WW but I don't think I have a photo of him with it.

[Muerrisch]

Edmund Blunden [R Sx] had a blackthorn which was stolen, and was ordered to obtain an ashplant .... the regimental norm. The ashplant is sturdy, and typically has a brass or bronze ferrule which, inevitably, takes a fine polish.

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (JulianB @ Apr 23 2008, 05:08 PM) Here is my grandfather photographed in early 1915. Whilst the top of the "stick" doesn't look like the usual nickel / silver ferrule with badge on I don't know the length !!

However, I agree, I've never seen a photograph of a 1st WW officer with any kind of stick "other" than a thin walking cane (or riding crop).

There are two others which I now have; one from the 1930s (I have a photo of him with it) which was definately the short one with regimental ferrule at the top (although the badge was out of date by the 1930s)

The other is the standard leather wrapped one but in this case it clicks open to reveal a blade ! - so best keep quiet about that ! I assume that is 2nd WW but I don't think I have a photo of him with it.

Absolutely spot on Juilian, that pic is a good example of a cane, although as you say one cannot be sure of the length. It nonetheless has the kind of bulbous head common for a long cane that has no crook. Officers did not carry a swagger stick circa WW1 because it was something affected by the men. Once it was no longer permitted for the men a modified form, usually leather covered, or bare bamboo/cane began to be carried by officers in SD. By WW2 it was virtually universal for an officer to do so, although officers with a mounted tradition continued to carry riding crops (but always called by them 'whips' never a crop) and Irish infantry regiments started to carry blackthorn sticks.

[SiegeGunner]

Here is my grandfather photographed in early 1915. Whilst the top of the "stick" doesn't look like the usual nickel / silver ferrule with badge on I don't know the length !!

It looks very much like this one, which I picked up a few years ago and always assumed was a schoolmaster's cane. It's 32" long.

[FROGSMILE]

It looks very much like this one, which I picked up a few years ago and always assumed was a schoolmaster's cane. It's 32" long.

A good example of a cane, but not a 'swagger stick', which to 'qualify' for that epiphet had to have a metal ferule and nickel silver or brass top, sometimes with regimental device on the end. Those later carried by officers were usually more expensively made, often with hall marked silver tops and beautifully engraved/embossed with sometimes ornate regimental devices. The most recent were, as I have said, either leather covered or plain unadorned wood and slightly shorter than the ORs version.

[Michael Johnson]

Three in my family.

1. My great-uncle's (Pte. 166th Bn. CEF). About 24" long, wooden, with a .303 round as the ferrule, and possibly a .577 Snider casing with a GS button on the top.

2. My wife's grandfather's (Sgt. R.C.A.F. Second War, previously 15th London 1913-1919) Black cane, fairly thick, with silver top with RCAF badge.

3. My father's (Lt. The Ontario Regiment, 1941-45). Standard leather-covered swagger stick, to which has been added an Ontario Regiment collar dog.

[centurion]

Lets put it another way, you see if you can find/demonstrate usage of 'swagger sticks' (short canes with ferrules and knobs/tops, carried under the arm, or swung in the hand, and not capable of resting on the ground when held in the hand - see enclosure), by officers prior to the 1920s. I am satisfied with my own research, if you are not please feel free to prove me wrong. As regards your wording "this only proves that swagger sticks were used extensively in Victorian times". That is NOT what I said, you have left out the fact that they were used also in Edward VII and (early) George V times also, but not generally, by officers, as is clear from my comments in this thread.

Your evading the issue - where is the documentation that proves that they were a Victorian invention?

[centurion]

I've tried to step back and take another look at this - see as follows;

In approaching this topic there is a problem – what is the definition of a swagger stick? Whilst some posters have offered definitions ( or a default one by pronouncing that this and that are not swagger sticks) there is, as far as I know no official definition that covers both what is called a swagger stick today and the sticks of previous periods. The following appears in a number of forms in various places but without any provenance as to its source.

"Swagger stick - A swagger stick is a short stick (unlike a staff) similar to a cane (then also known as swagger cane, possibly made from rattan) or riding crop (lighter), usually carried by a uniformed person as a symbol of authority."

As we shall see the very name of what we are discussing has changed down the ages.

Firstly nomenclature, 'Swagger Stick' is a term that appears to be post WW2 and has been applied retrospectively by antique dealers and others to a whole variety of sticks from past periods. Before then the term swagger cane appears to have been used. Certainly I have been unable to find swagger stick in dictionaries published before 1940 or references in contemporary material but the term swagger cane is used extensively from the 1930s back into Victorian times. I enclose some extracts from various works going back to Victorian times in which the term swagger cane is used.

"The object of the present invention is to provide an improvement in or modification of the aforesaid invention which is applicable more particularly to straight walking, sticks and sticks of the kind commonly known as 'swagger canes'" patent application May 1941

"So, too, had Ned Kelly, a Punch-faced elderly subaltern with a row of ribbons from previous wars. His words were a sharp chirrup, precise as a thrush's. Borrowing a steel hat and a gas-mask he went up the line with a mackintosh over his arm and a little swagger cane, as cheerful as if he were going to a city dinner." Guy Chapman 1916.

"Next week I'll 'ave 'em fitted; I'll buy me a swagger-cane; They'll let me free o' the barricks to walk on the Hoe again" Rudyard Kipling – Back to the Army again

In Kipling's verse he is referring to what was officially called a 'walking out cane' The standing orders of the DLI at the turn of the last century ran thus "A soldier is never to appear outside the barracks on any excuse without being properly dressed ... He must be clean and well shaved, and carry a walking out cane of the regimental pattern" Looking at an number of contemporary references it would seem that 'walking out cane' was the official designation for the small cane carried by OR but their popular name was 'swagger cane'. However 'swagger cane' was also applied to a number of types of stick carried by commissioned ranks. Thus –

"The image of Gordon leading his 'Ever Victorious Army', armed only with a swagger cane, indelibly imprinted itself upon the public imagination, and he was considered (not with total justice) to have been instrumental in the final defeat of the Tai Ping in 1863." The South African Military History Society.

Patton is reported as carrying a swagger cane throughout WW1

Looking at various military antique dealers' sites one finds a variety of sizes of swagger canes both officers and OR which brings us to the question of size. See link for one example SS Today one can buy an official RE "individually hand made 36inch hardwood SSM Swagger Cane, with oak finish and hand turned solid brass ferrule and cap with fixed RE badge" from the 'Sapper Shop' (RE Enterprises) Examples of 36 inch, 30 inch, 26 inch and 20 inch swagger canes/sticks can be found on various antique dealers' sites. There has recently been a number of postings in this forum showing soldiers with canes that have certainly been well over 20 inches. A photograph of 1856 shows Sgt Major Edwards of the Scots Fusilier Guards with a cane tucked under the arm. It is probably at least 36 inches in length. Another photo (1861) shows the Corporal Majors of the 1^st Life Guards in what appears to be walking out dress. They all carry a cane of about 36 inches. One suspects that a swagger cane was what the regimental unit chose to define as one.

When were such canes introduced? The Victorian period certainly appears to have been their hey day but they were around before them. Officers of the Kings Own German Legion in about 1810 when in drill uniform carried a small stick which has held in the hand and tucked under the arm. I attach a detail from a drawing made by Lawson from a series of watercolours held in the British Museum that were made by an officer in the Buckinghamshire Militia showing soldiers in 1798 holding short canes very like the later walking out canes. There are earlier cases of prints and paintings showing officers and men holding a variety of thin canes or sticks (not staffs or walking sticks) of different lengths. What these were called than is not known but they appear to be very similar the the swagger canes of the Victorian period

[squirrel]

Masterly piece of research if I may say so.

[FROGSMILE]

QUOTE (centurion @ Apr 24 2008, 08:40 PM) I've tried to step back and take another look at this - see as follows;

In approaching this topic there is a problem – what is the definition of a swagger stick? Whilst some posters have offered definitions ( or a default one by pronouncing that this and that are not swagger sticks) there is, as far as I know no official definition that covers both what is called a swagger stick today and the sticks of previous periods. The following appears in a number of forms in various places but without any provenance as to its source.

"Swagger stick - A swagger stick is a short stick (unlike a staff) similar to a cane (then also known as swagger cane, possibly made from rattan) or riding crop (lighter), usually carried by a uniformed person as a symbol of authority."

As we shall see the very name of what we are discussing has changed down the ages.

Firstly nomenclature, 'Swagger Stick' is a term that appears to be post WW2 and has been applied retrospectively by antique dealers and others to a whole variety of sticks from past periods. Before then the term swagger cane appears to have been used. Certainly I have been unable to find swagger stick in dictionaries published before 1940 or references in contemporary material but the term swagger cane is used extensively from the 1930s back into Victorian times. I enclose some extracts from various works going back to Victorian times in which the term swagger cane is used.

When were such canes introduced? The Victorian period certainly appears to have been their hey day but they were around before them. Officers of the Kings Own German Legion in about 1810 when in drill uniform carried a small stick which has held in the hand and tucked under the arm. I attach a detail from a drawing made by Lawson from a series of watercolours held in the British Museum that were made by an officer in the Buckinghamshire Militia showing soldiers in 1798 holding short canes very like the later walking out canes. There are earlier cases of prints and paintings showing officers and men holding a variety of thin canes or sticks (not staffs or walking sticks) of different lengths. What these were called than is not known but they appear to be very similar the the swagger canes of the Victorian period

Centurion I think the way you have put this elucidation of your views together is superlative and I hope you enjoyed crafting it as much as I have enjoyed reading it.

Your opening statement "what is the definition of a swagger stick" is for me key in terms of the stance that I personally am taking (no one is of course obliged to agree with me). Semantics are important in this case and I agree that the name of what we are discussing has changed down the ages. I think then that to be clear, what I am talking about as originating from the Victorian era is more properly a "Swagger Cane", albeit that as you have pointed out, the variation "stick" crept in much later but is now common parlance. Here is what a museum in the (erstwhile British) Commonwealth (Durban) has to say on the subject of sticks/canes:

Stick or Cane

. The word "cane" had not been applied to the fashionable walking stick up to the sixteenth century. During his period, however, the thick, jointed stems of tropical grasses known as bamboo and cane, and the reed-like stem of several species of palm and rattan were introduced for the stick. These were called "canes." From that day forth, the walking stick of the past merged into the cane of the future. Today the terms are used interchangeable, though the saying. "One strolls with a walking stick and swaggers with a Cane!" is indicative of how the two are perceived. (Source: Accessories of Dress by Katherine Morris Lester and Bess Viola Oerke, The Manual Arts Press, Peoria Illinois, pp 392.).

Rank and Power

. "The final indication of rank was the vitis or vine staff, a short stick about three feet long typically made of grape vine. It is known to have been used for whacking miscreant soldiers!" Ref: Legion XX--The Twentieth Legion, Roman Legion Organization and Officers, Equipment of The Centurion, 1/19/02.

http://www.larp.com/...oxx/orgoff.html

-RWG.

Use by the British Army

. The "leading cane" prescribed for British officers in a General Order of 1702. On parade, this cane was used for leading men. But it was also used administering on-the-spot punishment of up to 12 strokes for minor violations of regulations. Examples of the latter were: sneezing in ranks, scratching the head, or giving an officer a dirty look. Thus officers of Charles II's reign flaunted their aristocratic status by carrying walking-sticks. Lesser ranks such as drum-majors carried some lesser kind of stick, which subsequently developed into the long parade staff or mace. The equestrian (mounted) soldier carried a small cane or whip under his arm when 'walking out' (off-duty, hence the name 'swagger stick' - describing the typical gait of the soldier-on-the-town). Up until the end of World War One the off-duty soldier too was permitted a cane or swagger stick with ornamented head. In the Great War two classes of service stick were carried in the British Army, quite apart from the usual regimental swagger canes (which were lengths of cane or rattan): a light walking cane with a crook handle, carried by officers engaged on duty in static units such as Military Hospitals in the UK; and a Trench Stick - a heavier piece often with a carved handle, carried by officers serving in the field. Ref: Sticks In History: Introduction http:www.durban.gov.za/museums/localhistory/

So much then for the general use of sticks/canes of various kinds. I do not dispute, nor ever have disputed (see post 6) that sticks and canes of various lengths have been carried and used by officers and in some cases SNCOs for different purposes since long before Queen Victoria's reign. The "vine" used by a Roman Centurion (clearly an officer) and the "leading cane" carried by British Officers in the early 18th Century are both sticks/canes but neither are, in my view, "swagger canes". For me the swagger cane is inextricably linked with a specific Army policy that began whilst Queen Victoria was on the throne and that policy was intended to improve the lot and standing of the British Army soldier, one "Tommy Atkins". In both the 18th and 19th Centuries the British soldier was considered the "scum of the earth" (vide Wellington's Dispatches) who was invariably drunk, illiterate, ill-fed and often ill-clothed. Wives and families were treated little better and, all-in-all, his lot was so bad that no self respecting parent wanted their son to become a soldier.

Several initiatives were put in hand to begin remedying this state of affairs but in the interests of specific relevance to this thread and brevity I will focus on just one, appearance and standing. Soldiers began to be issued with a "walking out uniform" that was a specific order of dress intended to look smart, improve his pride in himself and look 'dashing' to the public at large. The uniform was intended to be smart, functional and relatively simple when compared with Full Dress. Such items as pill box hats and well fitting trousers or overalls together with close fitted tunics, shiny buttons and regimental titles were intended to help him 'look the part' and, included as an accessory to occupy his hands, was a swagger cane (later stick). These swagger canes were, as mentioned previously, of a reasonably common pattern, thin and tapering from one end with brass or nickel caps and metal ferrules and light in weight. They were not robust like a walking stick and could be swished and gesticulated in the air in a way that would be impossible with a heavy walking stick/cane. They were carried, out of barracks, by Other Ranks (ORs) only and became synonymous in the Public eye with being a smart soldier, so much so that the image of a soldier in walking out uniform, carrying his cane and escorting a pram-pushing Nanny in a public park became iconic in pre-Great War, Edwardian England. This public perception was to become significant when a mass, citizen Army was mobilised in an initial burst of enthusiastic effort in 1914-16. Almost as a rite of passage young men who had never worn a uniform began to have themselves photographed (often for their families as a keepsake). In their drab khaki uniform, they almost invariably are accompanied by that last vestige of perceived military panache, a swagger cane/stick.

After the 'war to end all wars' matters military understandably became unfashionable, as a nation weary with war returned to peacetime occupations. The Full Dress uniform that had been supposedly temporarily withdrawn in 1914, became permanently so, apart from the Sovereign's Household troops and soldiers were no longer given a specific walking out uniform but had to make do with the basic uniforms that they had. Swagger sticks were, for soldiers anyway, accordingly in abeyance for walking out. At the same time a fashion grew for officers to carry a cane rather than a stick when in what might be called barrack dress or undress uniform and these again took up a fairly standard pattern of either plain leather or cane/rattan or in smarter orders of dress, coloured cane and silver ends (this latter type had also been popular for a while in Victorian times when in barracks but not when walking out). Although generally a little shorter than the previous ORs pattern, these too became known as swagger canes/sticks (perhaps by chronological 'association', as officers did not 'swagger') and there were, as previously mentioned, variations with 'whips' and for some, blackthorn sticks.

This then is my 'take' on the swagger stick and I will leave it to others to decide for themselves whether it is right or wrong. One mans 'mug' is after all another mans 'tankard' or 'pot'. My perception of this subject has undoubtedly been shaped not just by research as a collector, but in part by being a member of a family that has served in overlapping and unbroken British Army service since 1940 (possibly earlier). The language and terms I use are those of former members of sergeants' and officers' messes going back to that time and, as it is an extraordinarily conservative institution, that language is passed from generation to generation. An uncle for example was in 1940 trained as a 'boy soldier' in WW1 issue Service Dress and puttees and instructed by men with chests full of Great War medals. He recalls that at parades the 2 "stick orderlies" who escorted the inspecting officer and who somnolently glided in slow march up and down the open ordered ranks, did so with short, silver capped ORs swagger sticks clutched under their arms. The officers, however, had walking sticks or short, leather covered, officers' pattern swagger sticks.

In the end my "evidence" is circumstantial and no more, but I am no less convinced for all that. I have found no record of an official and special walking out dress before Queen Victoria's reign, nor does there seem to have been a culture of British (and Empire/Commonwealth) soldiers swaggering in quite the same way. As has been shown, the carriage of sticks by soldiers and officers arguably goes back to ancient times. However, the multifarious sticks used over the previous decades and centuries, including those for the "King's German Legion" and the "Buckinghamshire Militia", short or not, do not look to me to be 'swagger canes' of the design used by soldiers in the very late 19th early and 20th Century and that went on to become synonymous with soldiers walking out in the public domain.

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day Chris et al'

I have been beaten to the punch I think.

To my way of thinking, however, I would have thought that the swagger stick was reminiscent of the Vitis carried by Roman Centurions - a sign of authority and a means to enforce it.

Regards

Pop

[PhilB]

I`ve re-read this thread with interest. Can I assume that a junior WW1 infantry officer would not usually carry a swagger stick/cane, except for certain regiments while a field officer in most regiments would probably carry a larger stick. A WW1 cavalry officer would usually carry a "whip"?

[ARMAGH]

very interesting post as an ex CSM I carried one in the barracks, very usefully on the drill square.

All arms drill course a very informative course, funeral drill followed by the wake, at Pirbright.

I still have my pace stick,when I see the price of them now!!! might put it on ebay, as no one will want it.