Was this man killed?

[carolm]

My search continues. Someone in Peterhead sent me a photo and transcript of the Will family grave. The stone was I believe erected in 1937 when the mother died and was amended as late as 1956. Here is the transcript. (Kelly is the boys' middle name - but I did check CWGC - just in case.)

Carolyn

[ian turner]

Carolyn,

Looking increasingly like one who slipped through the net? With no death certificate it is going to be a problem persuading CWGC - once again his service record (if it survives) may be the only help.

Ian

[Heid the Ba]

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but as he was killed in France would the DC be at the GRO in Edinburgh?

[eltoro1960]

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but as he was killed in France would the DC be at the GRO in Edinburgh?

H there, the War deaths are recorded in the somewhat inaptly named 'Minor Returns" section. only a pen pusher came up with that title. It's a very basic death return nothing like a traditional Scottish DC. I have seen quite a few missed here, mostly Corps men or men serving with 'Non Scots' regiments.

Here's an example

John

[Heid the Ba]

Thanks John.

[4thGordons]

Thanks John.

I spent a couple of hours yesterday searching the Minor Returns on Scotland's People trying everything I could think of and could find no record...I'm pretty sure Carolyn had searched these too.

I must admit I am begining to obsess a little about this case!

Chris

[kinnethmont]

Hi Carolyn

I was faced with a near identical situation a couple of years ago. The man was in 7 GH and fell in action at Beamont Hamel on 13th Nov 1916 according to the family headstone. He was recorded on a war memorial and details of him being missing ( later missing and presumed dead) were in the local press. There was no official records of his death at CWGC, GH Nominal Rolls, SNWM, etc, but by a process of elimination among other things, it transpired that there was an MIC for a man of the same christian, middle and surname in the same unit who was not on CWGC or SNWM despite the MIC stating he died on 13 Nov 1916.

Similarly there was no way to get a Death Certificate since he to was missing from the Service Returns ( Minor Records). To all intents and urposes he had simply died without trace, probably a clerical blunder, without the authorities being informed.

A case was submitted to CWGC. After nearly a year his case was accepted and his name added to the Roll of CWGC. His name is to be added to the Thiepval Memorial and to the SNWM roll.

The MOD were able to confirm the death from information they hold which in not publicly available.

The Forum member you need to contact is Terry Denham who is easily found from this section. From the details given here, thus far, there is not enough info available to merit a case to CWGC, I was lucky that the MIC ( although not regarded as conclusive proof) stated the man had died that November day. Press cuttings, headstones, etc are not conclusive proof for CWGC but will make good supporting evidence if something more concrete is found. Have the family any official letters regarding his death?

It might be that if your man's MOD / Pension record could be checked out by CWGC it would confirm that William Kelly Will, 241689, Gordon Highlanders died in 1917. They will require more evidence than currently held to instigate a search, I suspect.

Hope this assists.

[4thGordons]

The MOD were able to confirm the death from information they hold which in not publicly available.

Interesting parallel case - and congrats on resolving it and bringing him in from the cold.

Out of interest - any ideas what this source of information the MOD used was?

Chris

[kinnethmont]

Chris

These are records which were kept seperate of the man's Service Record and remain, even today, confidential. I believe they relate to pensions.

[carolm]

Thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions, and especially you Jas, for the inquiries you are making.

In responce to: "Apologies if this is a stupid question, but as he was killed in France would the DC be at the GRO in Edinburgh?", as well as being in the Scottish Minor Records, the details are also available on the GRO index of Oversea's Deaths - Army, Other Ranks 1914 -1921". This shows UK soldiers from all regiments. But poor William misses out here too - although his brother is shown. Interestingly, the index on Findmypast is incorrect - showing the contents of this page as starting and ending with "Wilkinson". Could this be a conspiracy?

I've been reading through other cases in this category. It's good to see other omitted names have been successfully included, but a bit of a worry that it all seems to depend on a death certificate.

Carolyn

[carolm]

Hi everyone

Some time ago I posted information about this soldier who I thought may be a non-commemoration but had been unable to locate any official proof/record of death. Today I found details of his Soldier's Will at the National Archives of Scotland - stating he had died, as I suspected - on 26th September 1917 - 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders. I wonder if this would be sufficient proof of death for William to be recognised by CWGC?

Carolyn

[John_Hartley]

In from the cold:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=75227962