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Remembered Today:

Was this man killed?


carolm

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Hello everyone. I'm hoping someone can help me with this puzzle.

William Kelly Will, 241689, Gordon Highlanders, is commemorated on the war memorial at Peterhead in Aberdeenshire.

His name appears directly under that of his brother David. However I cannot find any official record of William’s death in any of the usual places.

I have checked CWGC, SDGW, Scottish National War Memorial database, service returns on Scotlandspeople, GRO service deaths index.

His MiC has nothing useful.

The details I do have are:

1. His inclusion in a very lengthy casualty list of wounded Gordons that appeared in the Scotsman 31/10/1917.

2. His inclusion in a small casualty list of wounded Gordons that appeared in the Scotsman 8/12/1917.

This is a strange list and I think incorrectly titled.

It consists of 13 Gordons who also appeared on the earlier list of 31/10.

A check of CWGC shows that all the other 12 men died on 26/9/1917.

All were in 1st Battalion GH and were commemorated at Tyne Cot.

Service returns for 4 that I could find easily, show “presumed to have died 26/9/1917”.

(I think this list in the Scotsman was incorrectly titled Wounded and should have been titled “Wounded and Missing”.)

3. In July 1918 William’s family reported in the local paper, the Buchan Observer, that they had received “official information”

that their son, reported wounded and missing on 26th Sep 1917 “is now presumed to have died on that date or since.” (Attached)

4. William Will’s name appears in the same newspaper’s Roll of Honour published Feb 1919 as having died in 1917.

5. His name appears on the local war memorial unveiled in 1922, and on the list of names in the local paper that reported the event.

6. Family tradition, reported to me by his grand-niece and her father, accepts that this man died in the war, but no details were known.

William Will's number indicates he was originally in 5th Battalion GH, and this is what is inscribed on the Peterhead war memorial,

but was probably in the 1st at the time of his (presumed) death. Possibly his parents didn’t know he’d transferred.

It looks to me as if William was reported as wounded on the 1st day of the battle (hence the report in the Scotsman of 31/10)

but subsequently went missing either on the battlefield or on the way to, or even at a dressing station. (Casualty list 8/12)

But how could a record of his death be missed so completely in the official records? Could it be something as simple as a mis-spelling?

(I’ve checked Wills and even Kelly.)

I have come across details of men not included in CWGC before, but have always found SOME record of their death somewhere.

It would be quite sad if Pte Will has indeed been overlooked. His brother David has no known grave either,

but at least his name is recorded on the Arras Memorial.

Does anyone have any ideas about ways of tracing William Will?

By the way, the name Will is relatively common in the area so there are a few men called William Will appearing in the death records of

Aberdeenshire in later years – but none is this William Will.

Thanks

Carolyn

post-5583-1208399225.jpg

post-5583-1208399263.jpg

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The casualty list (wounded) that appeared in the Scotsman on 8/12/1917. All but Will show as killed on 26/9/1917.

Carolyn

post-5583-1208400372.jpg

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Carolyn,

Hmm - looks a difficult one.

No service record?

Might be worth looking at the Ancestry version (when available) of the MIC in case of anything on the back that might help.

Did he really survive, perhaps? A POW who turned up in later years?

Would the CWGC have anything in their files on David, in case the two were inter-mingled?

You seemed to have covered all the obvious angles.

Ian

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I agree. The service file seems to be the any possible official document left (if it still exists). It's unusual, but not impossible, that there's no death certificate.

The only other thing would be to access the Battalion war diary in the hope that there might be casualty list appended. Very long shot.

Hope it's OK, Carolyn, but I'm asking a moderator to transfer the thread to the "possible non-commemorations" section, where it's likely to attract the attention of folk with an interest in the issue.

John

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Thanks Ian and John. I have no problems with it being moved to a more appropriate section. I just hope to get some ideas.

I don't think there would be anything in the 1st Battalion Diary. The 5th Bn has full casualty lists but I haven't seen them elsewhere. However if anyone has access, I'd like to hear from them.

I think my chances or getting the service record are remote. Could be a while before it's on Ancestry, but if nothing else turns up I will see if I can get someone to check at Kew.

The thought of the man having amnesia and returning years after the end of the war did occur to me as a possible (if unlikely) explanation and I can't guarantee that he didn't return after the war. I am relying on the knowledge of his grand-niece and her father, who was the son of William's brother, as well as the other information already mentioned that indicates he was killed. Most POWs seem to have returned by 1919 so unless he had amnesia I wouldn't expect him to be on the memorial in 1922. Admittedly I don't know how the names were gathered for inclusion on local memorials - from family or from some official sources.

I can't help thinking though that if a family had a story like that in its history - long lost son "returning from the dead" - someone would know about it.

Thanks for your comments

Carolyn

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I don't think there would be anything in the 1st Battalion Diary.

The thought of the man having amnesia and returning years after the end of the war did occur to me as a possible (if unlikely) explanation

I can't help thinking though that if a family had a story like that in its history - long lost son "returning from the dead" - someone would know about it.

Carolyn

Carolyn - as you are at the 'clutching at straws' level I would not leave any stones unturned!

Meantime, it may not have been 'amnesia'. There were some who took the opportunity of their wartime absence to make good their further disapearance after the war.

All speculation of course. Good luck, as this seems a difficult one to crack.

Ian

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Neil: See posts 4/5

Carolyn, I duplicated your efforts in all the basic places with exactly the same results, ie nothing.

I tried various misspellings - same result. Did a quick browse of soldiers wills too - nothing I could see.

Found him in the 1901 census.

There is a transcript of the 1st Bn diary online - I don't see any casualty lists in it, but I am not sure how complete it is outside the chonology of events. If one were going to consult the original where would pals suggest starting or would it be a case of trawling through all of it? I have some extracts of the 1st bn Diary and will dig them out but I believe they are from 1916 so probably no use.

Chris

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Admittedly I don't know how the names were gathered for inclusion on local memorials - from family or from some official sources.

Carolyn

You may have put your finger on a very possible explanation. Family would be the usual source of information but, depending on the memorial, there may others. My research into the 2000 names on the Stockport Memorial suggests that there was also a trawling of newspapers to find names. It has led, without any doubt, to errors - the most memorable for me being the "man who never existed".

The newspaper published an obituary for a chap but published an entirely wrong name. They corrected it a couple of weeks late. But the first name is also on the memorial.

John

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Carolyn

You may have put your finger on a very possible explanation. Family would be the usual source of information but, depending on the memorial, there may others. My research into the 2000 names on the Stockport Memorial suggests that there was also a trawling of newspapers to find names. It has led, without any doubt, to errors - the most memorable for me being the "man who never existed".

The newspaper published an obituary for a chap but published an entirely wrong name. They corrected it a couple of weeks late. But the first name is also on the memorial.

John

I would agree that this sort of error somewhere would seem the most likely explanation, but in this case things are a bit different

1) We know (family and census) that the man existed

2) We know that he served (MIC)

3) We "know" (albeit indirectly) that the family recieved "official" news of his death

The issue is his death and the apparent lack of official documentation etc....

Unlike the situation you indicate John, in this instance it is not just the memorial but also the Family who believe this individual was a casualty...

Although it seems a bit far fetched it leaves the possibility that, as Ian suggested, "there were some who took the opportunity of their wartime absence to make good their further disapearance after the war" but even this seems a difficult scenario to construct....

Chris

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With the other possible scenarios being more, let us say, 'remote' I would still suggest it worth investigating his brother's records at CWGC - similar name and regiment leading to confusion..... stranger things have happened at sea!

Ian

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I know it's not exactly the same but it is similar. We only have a newpaper report of the "official notification". That newspaper report may simply be wrong - although I agree that, cumulatively, there is significent indication that this guy is "well dead".

The other thing worth checking (if only to eliminate) will be the 1918 Absent Voters List (if it still exists) and the normal voters list (going a few years into the 1920s to confirm he doesnt reappear at the home address)

Other than that, unless the service file still exists, I don't see how this might be brought to any sort of conclusion.

John

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As a start for that, here is his Brother's entry from the CWGC site:

Name: WILL, DAVID KELLY

Initials: D K

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Gordon Highlanders

Unit Text: 9th Bn.

Age: 23

Date of Death: 27/04/1917

Service No: S/3556

Additional information: Son of James and Mary A. Will, of 22, Chapel St., Peterhead, Aberdeenshire.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 8 and 9.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

The fact that the additional information is complete would suggest that the forms were returned by the family would it not?

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I know it's not exactly the same but it is similar. We only have a newpaper report of the "official notification". That newspaper report may simply be wrong - John

Agreed.

If there was an omission at the point that the records of the 13 wounded/missing became 12/13 missing presumed killed. (the list that Pte Will is not on) would this explain it?

I do not know enough about the way the official paper trail would have worked but if a list is transcribed and passed on and the man's name is simply omitted (W is towards the end...perhaps a separate sheet?) correcting the status is it possible that one copy (the official notification list?) included him - whereas others did not hence no additional record? This is pure speculation of course and I see no way it can be verified....

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Possibly, Chris. I've had another look at the GRO for a couple of easy names to find. From the list at post#2, both Mair and Winchester have Death Certificates. It'd make it unlucky if he was missed off a transcription as well as everything else.

It's helpful that the family were still at Chapel St in the 1920s (as per David's commemoration). Makes checking the electoral roll easier.

In terms of "due process", I'd also have thought that, at the time the War Office is making the official presumption of death, this is also when you'd have expected to see a death certificate issued. It's not a clerical error made as a result of the "heat of battle".

The other document that we need to usefully come across is an original CWGC register for Tyne Cot Memorial ( the other men are commemorated on it) - to ascertain that it's not a simple matter of him being missing just from the online record.

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The following is text of an item in the Daily Mail dated 3 December 1930:

DEAD MAN RETURNS

MISSING IN WAR

15 YEARS AGO

Reported by the War Office 15 years ago to be missing and to be dead, Benjamin List, of Jamieson Street, Middlesbrough, has returned home.

His name is included on the Roll of Honour at Middlesbrough Cenotaph.

Where List has been throughout the last 15 years is a mystery, as he is unable to tell his wife.

"Don't ask me, I don't know where I have been" he said to a Daily Mail reporter yesterday. "I might have been all over the world."

This was sent to me recently by Stan Grosvenor, just thought I would post it here as an example of things that happened post war in this case 15 years later.

Bob.

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Thanks guys for all the suggestions (keep them coming!)

I will try and find a voters' list from the 1920s to see if he appears. There is a new Family History Society just started in Peterhead - they may be able to help me there. I certainly didn't mean to sound dismissive of the idea of the man returning long after the war. I just think that it is the sort of family story people would remember and pass down - especially someone as closely related as a nephew.

I think a check of the CWGC records may also be useful as suggested. I believe there is someone on the forum who has a connection with CWGC. Can anyone give me his details, or should I just use the contact address on the website? I think a check of the original Tyne Cot register might be useful. Does anyone know if CWGC still has any original documents? Of course that doesn't explain all the other omissions.

And talking if omissions, Chris said:

"If there was an omission at the point that the records of the 13 wounded/missing became 12/13 missing presumed killed. (the list that Pte Will is not on) would this explain it? " Sorry you've lost me here Chris. William Will WAS on the list on 8/12 - all the others have details that they died on 26/9. Not quite sure what you mean.

On the subject of Death Certificates for soldiers - were next of kin issued "real" certificates - in the civilian sense, such as we'd get now if we requested a death certificate for a soldier who died in WWI - or did they just get official letters notifying death and date.

Should I re-post this under Non-Commemorations as suggested, or will the moderator do that for me?

Once again, many thanks.

Carolyn

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And talking if omissions, Chris said:

"If there was an omission at the point that the records of the 13 wounded/missing became 12/13 missing presumed killed. (the list that Pte Will is not on) would this explain it? " Sorry you've lost me here Chris. William Will WAS on the list on 8/12 - all the others have details that they died on 26/9. Not quite sure what you mean.

Carolyn

Disregard...its the kid in the back not paying proper attention again!

I understood you to say he was on one newspaper list but not on the second...rereading more carefully I see that he WAS on the second, and that the other 12/13 were later reported on the CWGC list (the "third list") but he is not, unless he is just missing from the online version, as has been pointed out.

As penance I ran various searches using "Geoff's Search Engine" today:

57 Gordon Highlanders are listed as dying on 26/9/1917 (all seem to be 1st Bn BUT several appear to have numbers in the 5th Bn range - although they are listed on CWGC as 1stBn)

6 individuals with the service number 241689 are listed as killed - none look likely (no Gordons)

31 individuals with the surname Will are listed. (this includes one 1/5th Bn man 240266 Pte Norman Will 31/7/1917)

12 individuals with the surname Will in the Gordons are listed - none look likely (there is another 5thBn man Pte 241050 George Will MM)

Terry Denham may be the moderator you are thinking of - I sent him a PM alerting him to this thread.

Chris

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I see the posting has been moved! Good. Thanks for that.

Well done that boy in the back row! See what you can do when you pay attention :D

I've posted off an enquiry to the Peterhead FHS to see if they know about absent voters' lists.

Again,many thanks to all.

Carolyn

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I checked Scotlands People and there are only 2 deaths reported that fit William Will, these two

1 1964 WILL WILLIAM Not Permissible M 67 ABERDEEN EASTERN DISTRICT ABERDEEN/ABERDEEN 168/03 0352 No Image ORDER

2 1980 WILL WILLIAM Not Permissible M 83 MAUD /ABERDEENSHIRE 312/00 0017 No Image ORDER

In 1901 the family were staying at 22 Chapel Street in Peterhead as they were in WW1.

Catherine P Will 4

David K Will 7 - Later KIA as you stated

James Will 29

James K Will 8

Mary A Will 26

William K Will 3

You might try the local papers for 1964 and 1980 death notices, it might shed some light.

John

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John,

Thanks for that info.

How many by the name William Will were born in the period 1897-1898? Just so that we do not get too excited about the possibility of his surviving until old age!

Ian

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Hi Ian, five William Wills for that period including two in Peterehead.

1 1897 WILL WILLIAM OLD DEER /ABERDEEN 228/00 0009 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

2 1897 WILL WILLIAM PETERHEAD /ABERDEEN 232/01 0158 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

3 1897 WILL WILLIAM DAVIDSON ST MARY DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/02 0770 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

4 1897 WILL WILLIAM JOHN DUMFRIES /DUMFRIES 821/00 0346 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

5 1897 WILL WILLIAM KELLY PETERHEAD /ABERDEEN 232/01 0584 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

(Edit-Took out the M for male to avoid any confusion)

John

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Hi been reading this thread also scratching my head. I quickly checked on Scotland's People there are 2 William Will's born in the Peterhead area between 1897-98. If you search William K and check the little box underneath it, it comes back with 1 match. Hope this little bit helps.

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His Mum died in 1937, it might be worth checking the death certificate to see whom the informant is , just in case it is William (outside chance I grant you), I have just run out of credits so no more searches left I am afraid, but here are the details if you want to follow it up. He has followed the Scottish tradition of the time of taking your mum's Maiden name as a middle name.

1937 WILL MARY ANN (KELLY) 63 PETERHEAD /ABERDEEN 232/00 0034 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

John

Edit - another idea, you might want to try the local paper for Peterhead on the anniversary of his death, and his brother for a few years on. In memorium notices are often good sources of information from family, friends and old comrdes.

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The informant at the death of Mary Ann Will was her son in law Duncan Birnie, the husband I assume of the daughter Catherine. William's grand niece (granddaughter of the brother James) claims her great aunt had photos of her two deceased (?) brothers in uniform and she (grandniece) adds: "According to my family William definitely did not come home ". (Not conclusive I know!)

To those deaths mentioned by John I'd add:

1972 WILL WILLIAM Not Permissible 76 PETERHEAD /ABERDEENSHIRE 313/00 0091 but this is most likely the other William Will #2 in John's earlier posting.

The local paper is a good idea. There may even be a mention at the time of the mother's death. Does anyone have access to the Buchan Observer? I only have the casualty list pages.

Cheers

Carolyn

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