Simon127 Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 Could anyone help me with what the markings on the butt disc of my short magazine Lee Enfield might denote? It is stamped with the faded stamping 'K A 426' and then '115' which is larger and clearer and takes up most of the lower part of the disc. The rifle was made by London Small Arms in 1917 and has the various crows foot stampings overall. If anyone might be able to suggest what this could mean I'd be most grateful. Many thanks, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 The normal format for the unit markings on the butt discs is the unit abbreviation followed by the rack number and issue date. Without a photo one cannot be precise, but "KA" should be the unit and 426 the rack number (ie the rifle's number within the unit). Normally I would expect "115" to be the issue date of January 1915 but since the rifle was made in 1917 this obviously is not the case. Also, the only unit abbreviation I can find for KA is the Karachi Artillery Volunteers in the Indian Army, which although possible is unlikely. Any chance of a picture? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 I can't think of one either Tony. Interesting. Have you tried unscrewing it and looking at the back? Sometimes they were reused and there are other markings on the obverse. Also isn't 1917 a bit late for unit discs? (yes I know they were reinstated post-war and many were not removed/deleted) but...Oh hold on I a was ssuming this was a No1MkIII* rather than a MkIII (given the date) in my limited experience marking discs are less common on MkIII*s than MkIIIs (and earlier marks), several later war LSAs that I have looked at have the "4th variation" buttstock which is not even inletted for the marking disc, but I think I am now recalling that LSA continued producing MkIII standard rifles much longer than other manufacturers....so I have perhaps argued myself out of that question! so just to satisfy my curiosity is it a MkIII or a MkIII*? Given the easy availability of both original and reproduction butt discs (see a well known online auction site for details!) I always treat these with a degree of circumspection as an indication of the rifles provenance. I too would be interested in seeing the markings Rereading this, I am not sure I have been much help other than to say I can't think og an abbreviation that fits! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 15 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2008 Thanks guys. The rifle is a SMLE Mk III as far as I can tell fitted with the magazine cutoff. I need to get back and get a good few photos which I'll try to do. It was an nineteenth birthday present (to myself!) a few years ago and I spent a couple of days in the garage working on it getting the cosmolene off. I'm 85% sure that I tried to remove the disc at the time so I could clean it but decided against it as I didn't want to damage it cause it put up a hell of a fight and I was wrecking the screw head. I'm pretty sure that the disc is certainly original and pretty sure that it's original to the rifle. The has certainly seen some use - It's lost some of its wood to the top and has a mismatched BSA bolt and was still live until 2004. Many thanks for your help - I'll try to get some pictures done. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 Because SMLE rifles serving in the colonies were "mixed and matched" to keep them going, it is a possibility the butt on your rifle, cam from another earlier example. Likewise, although the Commonwealth officially did away with butt discs on SMLEs in 1916, it is possible that some users - particularly paramilitary police forces - continued to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 Some of these mysteries are unknowable. When the rifle belonged to Britain the main point was to maintain it as a serviceable military firearm, not to keep it in the the same configuration it had when it left the factory. On top of that it's been a civilian-owned gun for several decades, who knows what the owners may have done. When you take your car in for an oil change or brake job do you worry that collectors 100 years from now will say, "That's not an original oil filter!" Or brake shoe or pad, or whatever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 Some of these mysteries are unknowable. When the rifle belonged to Britain the main point was to maintain it as a serviceable firearm, not to keep it in the the same configuration it had when it left the factory. On top of that it's been a civilian-owned gun for several decades. When you take your car in for an oil change or brake job do you worry that collectors 100 years from now will say? "That's not an original oil filter!" Or brake shoe or pad, or whatever. I agree! it seems to me that pristine examples of sevice rifles are very unlikely actually to have been servicerifles, They are nice enough, but for me - not worth the premium folks pay for them, same with P1907 bayonets with reissue dates etc - all part of the service history/use of the item..... Having said that, obviously "aftermarket accessories" quickly disappear and if repairing or replacing broken/missing components I take care to get the correct period piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 By dumb luck I found an Inland M1 Carbine made in 1943 that was never used or issued. It's all original, new condition, all the parts are coded Inland, the only question is whether someone may have re-Parkerized the metal. But when some okay guy goes on a forum and says he has a 1917 SMLE I don't like it when other people come back and tell him he has a dog. The guy has a Great War weapon and he should be proud of owning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 By dumb luck I found an Inland M1 Carbine made in 1943 that was never used or issued. It's all original, new condition, all the parts are coded Inland, the only question is whether someone may have re-Parkerized the metal. But when some okay guy goes on a forum and says he has a 1917 SMLE I don't like it when other people come back and tell him he has a dog. The guy has a Great War weapon and he should be proud of owning it. Agree again but I am not sure that is what has happend here, is it? I I have seen it happen but if you are suggesting that was what my intial response (above) was doing then I obviously failed to express myself clearly! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 No, I meant nothing about you. I made a generic comment about epicurian gun collectors who play one-upsmanship games with other collectors. You put a pristine Civil War Colt revolver up for sale for $5,000 and then some guy comes along and says you ain't got squat, "...but I'll give you $1,500 for it." Then you say no way and the guy starts arguing with you. The best thing to do is to tell him to go away, no sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 18 April , 2008 Share Posted 18 April , 2008 'But when some okay guy goes on a forum and says he has a 1917 SMLE I don't like it when other people come back and tell him he has a dog. The guy has a Great War weapon and he should be proud of owning it'. Totally agree Pete. My SMLE has some matching part numbers but the bolt is unmatched. It's a 1916 BSA and I think it is totally typical of a weapon of that age. I think people who expect every part to match are going too far. The butt disc has arabic letters on it, thought the inspection marks seem to indicate it never left UK service. I still love it!!!! Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 18 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 April , 2008 Many thanks for your help chaps. Please be assured that no offence has been taken from anything that anyone's suggested. I've been collecting long enough to know that anything that's been in military service can get monkeyed about with. I always wondered if the stampings meant anything and I knew that this was the place to come to find out. I've heard varying bits of info regarding how long butt discs were used, one saying that they were used up to the advent of the MkIII*. I always wanted a ww1 dated SMLE and made sure to get one with a butt disc when I bought it. There's obviously no way to positively confirm that this was 'there'. I also own the remains of a SMLE with complete 1907 bayonet attached and quite alot of its wood that came out of a motorway drainage trench near Bullecourt. No question that that one saw service. All the best, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatseeker Posted 19 April , 2008 Share Posted 19 April , 2008 By dumb luck I found an Inland M1 Carbine made in 1943 that was never used or issued. It's all original, new condition, all the parts are coded Inland, the only question is whether someone may have re-Parkerized the metal. But when some okay guy goes on a forum and says he has a 1917 SMLE I don't like it when other people come back and tell him he has a dog. The guy has a Great War weapon and he should be proud of owning it. I don't read that amyone is saying this rifle's a "dog", I just see some good advice as to how it may have come in to the configuration it is now ... very few relics get to stay intact during a turbulent 90- year history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted 5 October , 2021 Share Posted 5 October , 2021 An old post but hey. here is another butt disc with the KA markings Mickster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 October , 2021 Share Posted 6 October , 2021 I have another alternative to throw on the list of possibles -- Kirkee Arsenal (Indian) - if that is a possibility I am surprised TonyE didn't come up with it as I believe they manufactured .303 which was his specialty, but it seems to me they may have had a permanent armed detachment guarding the facility. Skennerton's "Broad Arrow" (MkII most recent edition) still reports Karachi Artillery Volunteers as K.A. as TonyE mentioned (I do miss chatting with him.) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 October , 2021 Share Posted 6 October , 2021 I agree that these letters are Indian rifle Depot markings that also show the date of issue. There are many examples of the various different Indian depots. There was another earlier thread where I argued this case strongly against some adamant opposition.! Will try to find it ... suffice to say Karachi Artillery Volunteers where apparently issued many thousands of rifles.! Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 October , 2021 Share Posted 6 October , 2021 (edited) Here it is Please try to keep an open mind and enjoy the "debate" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/177179-smle-butt-disc-id Cheers, SS Edited 6 October , 2021 by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 October , 2021 Share Posted 6 October , 2021 Well at least I am consistent! (This also explains why the question seemed so familiar....despite having no recollection of the threat until I clicked on the link!) . Thanks (?) for that! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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