Fabiansson Posted 25 January , 2003 Share Posted 25 January , 2003 Hedley's thread had lost focus long before I read it, so I bring it up again. What Charlotte writes about the planned archaeological excavation at the planned Visitor's Centre for Tyne Cot (whether it is of the site for a parking place or a building) is very interesting, i.e. that "archaeologists from all countries involved in WW I should dig the foundations of the new building together". Is it only an (farfetched?) idea sprung up by the private developers? Or is it "an absolute condition of permission", stated by Belgian authorities, as Hedley mentions? Aurel, you have a lot of information on this, but you do not mention any archaeological plans - are there no? Do you know? Or does anyone else know? Anyway, anything quite like that has never occurred. But something similar actually has, in France: An international (French- Canadian) archaeological excavation of the ground of a parking place at a popular Western Front site was undertaken 1998, at the Beaumont Hamel Memorial Park. See picture below: Tracé de la tranchée Uxbridge Road, mise au jour dans l'aire du stationnement. Beaumont-Hamel, Le site mémorial Terre-Neuvien, 9U/80.069.001 AH, 98R7T-2, cl. G. Piédalue/Parcs Canada. The disturbed (by farming etc.) topsoil has been stripped away, so the line of the trenches get clearly visible (from Bilans scientifiques régionaux). Below scan from the archaeological report (detail): Nils Fabiansson The Archaeology of the Western Front 1914–1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 26 January , 2003 Share Posted 26 January , 2003 Sorry, Nils, can't help you right now. The only information I've got so far is what I wrote about it. I have neither heard nor read anything about possible archaeological excavations near Tyne Cot Cemetery. Maybe Charlotte has that extra information ? I have already contacted her and maybe she will pass it on. I'll keep you posted if I find more. Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabiansson Posted 26 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2003 Thanks Aurel. This could be very interesting indeed. Another question, to those who know the Tyne Cot site and its local history in detail: What kind of material remains could be expected from an excavation of the "area behind Tyne Cot Cemetery"? German trenches etc. from 1914-1917? British trenches etc. from 1917? British from 1918? German from 1918? What has occurred at that very site after Third Ypres? Are the 1917 remains "archaeologically disturbed" by the 1918 events? At the Visitor's Centre at Thiepval Memorial there where no doubt of what could be expected of the Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) surveys, i.e. German Trenches, dugouts etc. from 1916. But, according to www.thiepval.org.uk/news, the conclusions of the "survey states that the survey area contains very little surviving material of archaeological or military interest" . It would be sad however, if the developers of Thiepval Visitor Centre will take these GPR results as a justification for not undertake an more elaborate archaeological excavation of the site (as the French and Canadian did at Beaumont Hamel). GPR give only, at best, a very rough outline of major subsurface structures. This has been clearly demonstrated by the Durand Group before (as well as of archaeologists at more traditional archaeological sites). But at a historical battlefield site, "completely pulverized by the shelling" (www.thiepval.org.uk/news), remaining intact structures are certainly not what to be expected, of course. So, what the developers of the Thiepval Visitor Centre (as well as those for Tyne Cot) must consider is what they are looking for, i.e. what they want to use archaeological data for: What is of major interest for an information centre such as the planned at Thiepval (as well for Tyne Cot) is, naturally I would say, the archaeologically recorded details of the actual destruction of the site during the battle. A seriously undertaken archaeological investigation of Thiepval or Tyne Cot could give opportunities for demonstrating, three dimensionally, the impact of the first industrialized war on man an nature. What could be more appropriate for a Visitor Centre at the Western Front? Nils Note: This is not criticism of the Durand Group's GPR work. An evaluation of their GPR survey results in comparison with the results from an archaeological excavation would be very interesting and shed light on methodological questions regarding WW1 archaeology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Nils, I don't think that much could be found immediately behind Tyne Cot. The Flandern I Stellung ran across the cemetery (the three still existing bunkers). More towards the railway embankment, there was a German cemetery, the embankment itself was also very much used for storing material and hiding troops in the many dug outs there. However as the plans to continue the Ieper-Zonnebeke road to Roeselare along this former railway tracé are still there, I don't suspect the visitor's centre/parking will come to there. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 I would have thought that adequate and careful excavation of both the Thiepval and Tyne Cot sites is required both for sound archaeological reasons and more importantly to ensure that any human remains in these areas are removed sensitively. I would not like to think that these buildings were erected either over the remains of fighting soldiers or on ground where the remains had been rudely bulldozed aside. This is surely just part of the process of minimising the potentially intrusive nature of these buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Of course I agree with you Ian, human remains could be found there and must be treated with the utmost respect! However, I don't expect any interesting archaeological finds there (one never knows though). Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabiansson Posted 27 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Ian! A serious archaeological excavation includes - naturally - appropriate and respectful treatment of human remains. Jan! Thanks for the info of the German lines etc. However, whether there are any "interesting archaeological finds" at the site or not is impossible to answer before you (the archaeologists) have a question. Even absence of artefacts etc. may be "interesting findings", archaeologically speaking. It all depends on what you want to study. Recovering objects is not interesting in itself. But a three dimensional study of the degree of the devastation of Flandern I Stellung might be. Or some other creative idea. Perhaps someone has a scan of a trench map of the site? Would be useful. And what did the British make of the line during the winter 1917-1918? Did they recycle it? /Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 10 February , 2003 Share Posted 10 February , 2003 A follow-up to Nils' point and some more news. The funding for the project will come from the Belgian Government and, hopefully, the EU, and will be paid direct to the developer, a Belgian who owns the land. This is important because in the past regional and local money meant to improve facilities at Tyne Cot has been diverted by local politicians into other causes. A few years ago money was ear-marked to a build a car park at Tyne Cot, but it ended up funding a cheese museum (now closed). Not surprisingly, local politicians and influence groups like to see money spent on projects which generate cash for the locals; a free car park does not do this. The fact that the funding is both central and to be paid direct to the landowner and developer means that the project is likely to go ahead without being diverted by local politics. The development will comprise a car park and a small visitors' centre. It will be discrete and in keeping with the cultural, emotional and historic signficance of Tyne Cot. It will not be visible from the cemetery. The emphasis will be on memory; there is no intention to replicate the spirit of the Cloth Hall. The ground is believed to contain many remains of archaeological interest, including tunnels. The developer's proposal is to invite all allied nations who fought there to each send an archaeological team to carry out a specific project. Germany is not included (strange given EU funding), but India is. In the UK the Archaeology Departments of Southampton and Reading Universities have been approached and/or expressed an interest in being involved. It could mark a major step forward in the professional recognition of battlefield archaeology. This information comes to me second-hand, but was given in good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest franky Posted 10 February , 2003 Share Posted 10 February , 2003 Concerning the discussed archaeological excavations of the Tyne Cot area, I can assure the forum that these will not be the case. Behind Tyne Cot there are concrete plans for a parking and toilets and further on the top of the ridge a panorama-room to have a good view over the battlefield. There is not going to be a museum, nor a visitor's center, cafetaria etc. The whole project follows a recent visitor's enquiry which showed a lack of parking, toilets and historical guidance. The archaeological aspect will be strictly limited to the place of the new infrastructure, not an inch more. Franky Bostyn, Historian Coordinator for Culture and Tourism Town of Zonnebeke-Passchendaele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabiansson Posted 10 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 10 February , 2003 Hedley and Franky, Extremely interesting to see two very detailed versions so completely different. Franky: An archaeological investigation "strictly limited to the place of the new infrastructure" is exactly what I had hoped for, not an inch more. If a serious excavation of the site - limited in size - will be undertaken, it is a big chance that it could be very focused on the very details of the destruction. Could be very interesting! But if there are not going to be neither EU money, nor EU archaeologists, who will undertake the excavation? Hedley, do you have further contact with your secret informer? If such great plans where made, where did they stop along the road, and why? It is a pity, an EU project would have been great! Regards, Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlotte cardoen-descamps Posted 10 February , 2003 Share Posted 10 February , 2003 I can only confirm what Hedley has written down in his posting. I too have been told by someone who is involved in the organisation (and I hope you understand that it is not up to me to bring forward the name of that person) that EU archeologists would be involved. However, as I understood nothing was certain yet and actually I am awaiting more detailed information before all too long. I am pretty sure thoug that this project will not be carried out light-footedly, once the final decison has been taken to go along with it. As soon as I obtain more information, I will post it to the list to share it with you. Best wishes from Flanders, Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 11 February , 2003 Share Posted 11 February , 2003 Nils, I thought you would be pleased!!! Kind Regards Hedley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabiansson Posted 11 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2003 I am pleased Hedley, of course! If Charlotte's and your deep throat is correct, that is! An EU project like this would be the very best. It would be, in my view, the most interesting project ever carried out along the Western Front (especially if German archaeologists also would be invited)! But Franky Bostyns's reply gave rather different information, and he would know, would he not, as Coordinator for Culture and Tourism for the town of Zonnebeke-Passchendaele? But perhaps not? Perhaps the final decison has not yet been taken? Wait and see. Perhaps you and Charlotte manage to obtain more information from your secret source. Let us hope for the best. (But Franky's information on a "strictly limited" excavation is not really bad either. If it is not too limited... /Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 11 February , 2003 Share Posted 11 February , 2003 Is there any urgency in the start of this? What are the chances of EU funding? The idea of archaeologists from different countries working together is a great idea, especially if the dig is being seen as important. Would there be mileage in presenting a format to get the whole project recorded, such as the Forgotten Battlefield programme, which developed before our eyes. There are plenty of people in this forum who have the necessary experience tio make that happen. In addition such coverage may compliment application for funding. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 11 February , 2003 Share Posted 11 February , 2003 One of the leading British advisers to the project has extensive experience as a TV film producer, including screened documentaries on WW1 topics and issues. We could well see at least one documentary on the excavations and possibly more on related subjects. But that's just my personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 11 February , 2003 Share Posted 11 February , 2003 Hedley In gaining professional acceptance of Battlefield archaeology as an earlier posting stated, then some media coverage and documentary must be made alongside the work, especially if a variety of nations are to be involved. A rather unique occasion and one that should not be lost. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabiansson Posted 12 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2003 John and Hedley, Documentaries are good, but they are neither the main way to go if one is interested in getting professional acceptance of Battlefield archaeology, nor the way to make the results of the work usable for other researchers. What is needed, is that the results get published, not only in TV and newspapers, but in serious archaeological and historical journals, or as books (or as professional archaeological field reports). Today quite many professional excavations of WW1 sites and many amateur digs has been undertaken, but very very few have been published or even documented seriously (i.e. published/documented in such form so the results, the data and the methods etc. are of use for other researchers). But when it comes to this project it all seems promising! Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 12 February , 2003 Share Posted 12 February , 2003 Nils I agree, its just being able to give the work a wide as possible an audience. The TV and other areas just are methods by which acceptance on a broad front can be achieved. Professional acceptance has to be via the appropriate method. For others it will be through other methods I find the idea of teams/individuals from the different nations working together on the project quite unique and exciting John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now