10th Service Battalion Welsh Regiment

[evolution]

The 9th Btn Welch and 9th Btn RWF were to attack just North of Givenchy, IF the attack by 5th BGD just north of the canal had been successfull, which it was not, orders were given for both Btn's to advance, gas was released which did not reach fritz, it only served to put them on alert and brought down heavy shelling, I cant comment what happened to the RWF, but the 9th Battalion advanced over complete open ground, and was mowen down by MG fire, in a few minutes the Battalion had lost 13 officers and 221 OR's.

The first action by the 9th Battalion The Welch Regiment was a tragedy, but showed that they had the fighting ability of any regular Btn.

[Matthew B.]

Hi SWB,

Not sure if you know this already but due to my interest in the Indian Army I have dug out the Indian Army career details on the two CO's you mention:

Lieutenant Colonel Edward Leigh Holloway

Born 20th November 1859

1st commissioned 25th February 1880

Appointed to the Indian Army 26th April 1882 from the Ox & Bucks Light Infantry

Promoted Lieutenant Colonel 5th November 1905 and appointed C.O. 64th Pioneers on the

Appointed C.O. 64th Pioneers on 5th November 1905, to expire on 4th November 1910

Promoted Brevet Colonel 5th November 1911

Had qualified for the staff and was a qualified musketry instructor

His only active service in Burma from December 1891 to February 1892 on the Baungshe Column for which he received the India General Service medal (1854-95) with the clasp Burma 1889-92.

This column was one of 11 operations against bandits and others carried out during this period,

Retired from the Indian Army 25th February 1912

--

Lieutenant Colonel Percy Edwards Ricketts

Born 5th March 1868

Educated at Winchester

1st commissioned 22nd August 1888

Appointed to the Indian Army 17th June 1890 from the Devonshire Regiment

Joined 18th Bengal Lancers (later 18th (King Georges Own) Lancers)

Adjutant 9th May 1896 21st August 1899

Promoted Captain 22nd August 1899

Appointed Squadron commander, 18th Lancers 10th June 1907

Promoted Lieutenant Colonel 3rd April 1916

Appointed temporary Colonel 5th May 1917

Had qualified for the staff, was a qualified musketry instructor.

Active service on the North West frontier for the Relief of Chitral in 1895 and was mentioned in dispatches, and again in 1897-98 and Tirah (India medal (1895) with 4 clasps)

He was on leave in England when war was declared in August 1914

Appointed a Major in the Derbyshire Yeomanry as of 30th September 1914

Served with the Derbyshire Yeomanry 1914-15 in England.

He returned to the 18th Lancers, now in France, and served with them from the 2nd February to 5th November 1915, when he left to take over the command of the 10th Welsh from Holloway on 8th November 1915.

Dangerously wounded commanding 10th Welsh 9th July 1916 at Mametz Wood. He formally gave up command on the 9th November 1916

These wounded incapacitated from further active service but in May 1917 he was appointed temporary Colonel and made Commandant of the 5th Army School 1917-1918 and after the March 1918 retreat commanded a group of units in the Labour Corps March 1918 until November 1919

Awarded the MVO London Gazette 4th July 1914, DSO London Gazette 1st Jan 1917, mention in despatches, London Gazette 1st Jan 1917 and 22nd May 1918

Retired from the Indian Army 3rd April 1920

Died 1st Sept 1940

Hope you find it useful.

Matthew B.

[Bernard_Lewis]

Thanks for that; it will be of use in a project of mine.

Bernard

[Guest roseburridge]

It's been a while since anyone added info to this forum...

This year I've been researching my Husbands Great, Great Uncle, William Frederick Sebburn of the 10th Batallion of the Welsh Regiment who died on Feb 14th 1916, age 18, and is buried at Le Touret Cemetery. We visited his grave in July. According to the records in the War Diary which I obtained from the national archives, he died when out on a working party.

I am interesting in obtaining a translated version of Captain David Jones's war letters, held at the National Library of Wales. I would also like to visit the library and see them myself. Has anyone visited or read translated versions?

[Moonraker]

An article in the Glamorgan Gazette of October 23, 1914 suggests that the 10th's move from Codford had been planned very early on:

"The latest returns show that about 1,600 men have already been enrolled in the mining valleys for the Rhondda Battalions. About 1,000 of these men are already in training at Codford, the remainder being at the Cardiff Depot of the Welsh Regiment. These Rhondda Battalions will be attached to the Welsh Army Corps, and it will interest the relatives of the men to know that, according to present arrangements, the battalion already enlisted will shortly be recalled from Codford for training in their home country."

Some lists of unit locations place the 10th at Codford in September, whereas it was there in October. In post 2 above, I stated that the transfer to Rhyl was on September 30 - as does the Long, Long Trail. In fact the 10th was to leave Codford on October 30.

A letter held by the National Library of Wales dated November 14 to the GOC Southern Command states that Colonel Holloway and 800 men of the 10th, "now in Wales", would continue to be known as the 10th (Service) Battalion the Welsh Regiment, but personnel of the 10th remaining at Codford would be distributed among other battalions of the Welsh Regiment, the officers being posted to the 8th and 9th battalions.

Newspaper articles on

http://papuraunewyddcymru.llgc.org.uk/en/title/browse

reveal that when the 10th arrived in Rhyl there was some disorder following dissatisfaction with the billeting arrangements, requiring some firm police action.

Moonraker

[Guest]

Hello high wood

I see that Captain Tom Ivor-Davies. Wounded 10th July 1916 is included in the first picture from your post in 2009, sadly he was missing on the close-up, is it possible after all this time to have a closeup of him please. Thank you

Edited 12 November , 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Hi there. I see this is quite an old forum on here going back to 2009. My name is David Gibbs and my great, great uncle was Private Joseph Thomas (202277) of Brynsadler, near Pontyclun. I hope my comments and photos below can help shed some light on the Welsh Regiment.

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1626181/thomas,-joseph/

 

I understand that Jospeh Thomas had ginger hair, unusual in our family.

 

In about 1998, I found my grandmother cleaning his large memorial plaque and other 'Mutt and Jeff' war medals. They had been passed down to her through Joseph's sister, Lydia, my great grandmother who died in 1960. As a history teacher, I had visited Ypres many times on WWI trips but never realised that my ancestor's name was on the wall. I managed to tell my grandmother that I had found her uncle's name on the wall in Ypres about a week before her own death in 2004. I went on to find out more about Joseph Thomas and my own family history, meeting and corresponding with relatives I never knew I had.

 

I'd be very interested to know more about the Welsh Regiment (10th Battalion), especially the Rhondda Pals. I have a possible photo of the Rhondda Pals and 2-3 other photos of Joseph with a pal (who I'd love to find out the name of) attached here.

 

I still have Joseph's medals. I know the regiment went out to Mametz Wood in 1915-16/The Somme 1916, but I can't seem to find any evidence of Joseph being there. I believe he may have been conscripted in 1916. His date of death at the Third Battle of Ypres/Passchendaele, specifically the Battle of Pilckem Ridge (31st July 1917), was the same date of death as Hedd Wyn (Ellis Evans), the Eisteddfod winning Welsh poet. Being Welsh, I am very proud of that fact. Evans was a Royal Welsh Fusilier though.

 

I hope anyone with knowledge of the Welsh Regiment (10th Battalion) will put it up on here. I believe the name was changed to Welch Regiment (with a C) in 1921. This may be useful in case anyone wishes to buy one of the 'original' Welsh Regiment cap badges on eBay. If it has a 'C', it may be later than WWI.  

 

Pte. Joseph Thomas 202277 (Second Row, second from left - with his cap misplaced!) Are these the Rhondda Pals?

 

Pte. Joseph Thomas 202277 (right). Anyone know who the guy sat down might be? They must have been good friends as he appears in civilian photos I still have of Joseph. Note too the shoulder badge. I've only seen these spelt 'WELSH', not 'WELCH.'

 

Pte. Joseph Thomas 202277 (left). The same fella standing next to him. Note the cap badges. I think these have 'Welsh' not 'Welch', due to the regiment's name change after WWI.

Edited 13 November , 2018 by Guest

[Sally E]

I am researching my great grandfather. I have found a number of documents that say that he was part of the 10th Battalion of the Welsh Regiment. Which seems to be the 1st Rhondda?? Which is a bit strange as he was living in the Sandfields area of Swansea. So I thought he would have been part of the 14th Swansea Pals.

 

Any help in understanding the documents I have found would be much appreciated. I would like to know where he served and what battles he might have fought at. He survived the war but sadly died shortly after (Spanish flu?)  His death certificate said pneumonia.

 

He was Pte Samuel Rice 44624

 

** I would also like to contact DavidG1974 who posted all the photos above. I have one photo of Samuel and he looks very much like the young man in the photo with Pte Joseph Thomas. The ears caught my attention. It might be my great grandfather.

 

I am having trouble attaching the photos of my documents into this message... But will try in another post.

 

Many thanks, Sally

 

 

[Sally E]

Here are all the things that wouldn't attach to my last message.

 

And fyi... The photo is of Samuel Rice with his wife, my great grandmother. They married 20th August 1918 when he was 25 years old (his profession: soldier). So he would likely be older in this photo compared to DavidG1974's photos... And he would have already been in France.  Do you think it's him?

[Sally E]

I have flopped my image and done a side by side comparison...

The photo on the right would have been around the 20th August 1918.

 

Many thanks, Sally

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, Sally E said:

I am researching my great grandfather. I have found a number of documents that say that he was part of the 10th Battalion of the Welsh Regiment. Which seems to be the 1st Rhondda?? Which is a bit strange as he was living in the Sandfields area of Swansea. So I thought he would have been part of the 14th Swansea Pals

I see that he enlisted in December 1915. Whilst many of the men who joined up in late 1914 would have joined a unit with strong local affiliations, a year later they would have been sent to whatever one needed new men. And there was a growing realisation that if a unit with many men from the same locality suffered massive casualties, then their community at home would be devastated.

[Bernard_Lewis]

The Swansea Battalion (14th Welsh) left Swansea for Rhyl in early December 1914, for further training. So he might have just "missed the boat" on that one as some of the volunteers had been in training since September 1914. So he would have been quite "raw" by comparison but still prepared, of course, to lay his life on the line.

 

Bernard

Edited 11 April , 2020 by Bernard_Lewis

[Sally E]

On 10/04/2020 at 17:42, Moonraker said:

I see that he enlisted in December 1915. Whilst many of the men who joined up in late 1914 would have joined a unit with strong local affiliations, a year later they would have been sent to whatever one needed new men. And there was a growing realisation that if a unit with many men from the same locality suffered massive casualties, then their community at home would be devastated.

Very interesting. Thank you. That would explain it.

[Sally E]

On 10/04/2020 at 23:05, Bernard_Lewis said:

The Swansea Battalion (14th Welsh) left Swansea for Rhyl in early December 1914, for further training. So he might have just "missed the boat" on that one as some of the volunteers had been in training since September 1914. So he would have been quite "raw" by comparison but still prepared, of course, to lay his life on the line.

 

Bernard

Thank you. He lived on Richardson Rd near Christ Church in the Sandfields area. That's why I was a bit confused. I bought your book Swansea Pals and am half-way through reading it. Very interesting. Do you agree that from the papers I supplied above it looks like he was part of the 10th Battalion of the Welsh Regiment (and that's 1st Rhonnda)? I'm trying to work out what battles he may have participated in. Many thanks.

[Bernard_Lewis]

Yes, Sally. Looks like he was 10 Welsh. 

 

The 10th Welsh was the 1st Rhondda and formed part of the 114th Infantry Brigade. The 14th Welsh (Swansea Pals) was in the same brigade (that brigade formed part of the 38th (Welsh) Division) so the 10th would have been in the same locations that I describe in my book until it was disbanded in 1918. He would have been at Mametz Wood, Third Ypres (Passchendaele) etc.

 

A bit here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/welsh-regiment/

 

Bernard

[Sally E]

13 hours ago, Bernard_Lewis said:

Yes, Sally. Looks like he was 10 Welsh. 

 

The 10th Welsh was the 1st Rhondda and formed part of the 114th Infantry Brigade. The 14th Welsh (Swansea Pals) was in the same brigade (that brigade formed part of the 38th (Welsh) Division) so the 10th would have been in the same locations that I describe in my book until it was disbanded in 1918. He would have been at Mametz Wood, Third Ypres (Passchendaele) etc.

 

A bit here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/welsh-regiment/

 

Bernard

 

Thanks Bernard.  I noticed that on the Long Long Trail link it says that the 10th Welsh / 1st Rhonddas were disbanded in February 1918.  Yet Samuel Rice wasn't discharged from service (due to disability / DAH) until 9th March 1919.  Do you have any idea how I can find out where he was during his final year of service? Many thanks, Sally

[Bernard_Lewis]

You'd need to check on Ancestry to see if his record has survived. Other Forumites may have other/better ideas on how to try and pin down what he was doing in 1918/19.

 

On his discharge due to DAH: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/what-were-vdh-and-dah/

 

Bernard

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, Sally E said:

Do you have any idea how I can find out where he was during his final year of service?

 

The protection certificate you posted above shows he was attached to 256 Tunnelling Company Royal Engineers on being posted to the Class Z Reserve. as noted on LLT ‘550 men formed 1 Entrenching Battalion and then moved on to other units.’

 

His service record has not survived however we can say he attested under the Derby or Group Scheme in December 1915 in Swansea.  He was mobilised in his Group on the 16th February 1916 an was posted to a Reserve Battalion of the Welsh Regiment for training, in all probability the 20th, which at that time was the Reserve Rhonnda Battalion. 

 

At a date yet to be determined he was posted to the BEF for service in the 10th Battalion. I'll try to find a date later, but most of the men who were mobilised with him whose records survive were discharged before going overseas.

 

Ken

 

[Bernard_Lewis]

Brilliant, Ken!

 

Bernard

[mandy]

On 19/03/2009 at 13:04, Copper6197 said:

SWB:

I trust your research into the 10th Service Battalion is still progressing. If needed I have copies of their War Diary upon their arrival in France in Jan/Feb. 1916. Have you checked with the Royal Regiment of Wales re any records?

George

Hello. I am very interested to learn more about this. My Great Grandfather Sgt T J Lee was in 10th Battalion 1st Rhondda and died 16/03/1916

Service number 21946

Kind Regards

Mandy Lee 

[kenf48]

49 minutes ago, mandy said:

Hello. I am very interested to learn more about this. My Great Grandfather Sgt T J Lee was in 10th Battalion 1st Rhondda and died 16/03/1916

Service number 21946

Kind Regards

Mandy Lee 

 

Hi Mandy and welcome to the forum

 

As of this week the war diaries are free to download from TNA (normal price £3.50) or can be found on Ancestry if you subscribe

You need to register with TNA but the link is here

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354158

 

As you have probably found his service record has not survived but there is lots of information on researching a Great War Soldier on the Long Long Trail websiter

link top right or

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/

 

Not exactly sure what it is you want to 'learn more about' but come back if you have any queries after you've looked at the above.

 

Ken

[clk]

Hi Mandy,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Fold3 (link) has a pension card which shows his cause of death:

 

Image sourced from Fold3

 

His CWGC records (link) show that Thomas was originally buried at map reference 36a.X.7.a.2.6, the location of which is shown below.

 

Image sourced from tMapper.com

 

If you would like a digital image of his grave stone, it looks like British War Graves (link) will be able to send you one on a free of charge basis.

 

The medal roll records (link) for Thomas indicate that his overseas service was entirely with the 10th Battalion Welsh Regiment, disembarking on 2.12.1915. His Soldiers Died record (link) shows that Thomas enlisted at Tonypandy. Looking at some surviving service papers for other men who served with the 10th Bn, and had near service numbers, it looks like he joined up in November 1914.

 

21921 Vaughan - attested 10.11.1914

21925 Morgan - attested 10.11.1914

21926 Church - attested 10.11.1914

21927 Jefferies - attested 10.11.1914

21939 Sage - attested 11.11.1914

21946

21952 Phillips - attested 12.11.1914

21953 Hughes - attested 12.11.1914

21956 Isaac - attested 13.11.1914

21958 Howell - attested 13.11.1914

 

In addition to the Battalion war diary that Ken posted a link to, it might be worth considering getting the Brigade HQ diary (link); the Division HQ General Staff diary (link); and the Division A&Q diary (link).

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 23 April , 2020 by clk

[Sally E]

On 14/04/2020 at 20:59, kenf48 said:

 

The protection certificate you posted above shows he was attached to 256 Tunnelling Company Royal Engineers on being posted to the Class Z Reserve. as noted on LLT ‘550 men formed 1 Entrenching Battalion and then moved on to other units.’

 

His service record has not survived however we can say he attested under the Derby or Group Scheme in December 1915 in Swansea.  He was mobilised in his Group on the 16th February 1916 an was posted to a Reserve Battalion of the Welsh Regiment for training, in all probability the 20th, which at that time was the Reserve Rhonnda Battalion. 

 

At a date yet to be determined he was posted to the BEF for service in the 10th Battalion. I'll try to find a date later, but most of the men who were mobilised with him whose records survive were discharged before going overseas.

 

Ken

 

 

Thank you so much for your help in deciphering the documents.  Very kind and generous of you.  I didn't know what the 256 Tunnelling Company was, so couldn't make out the writing on the paperwork.  Please excuse the basic questions (I'm still learning)... How do you know his service record didn't survive?  And how do you know all that other information about him? And what does it mean? What is the BEF for example? I looked on Wikipedia and it didn't mention a 10th Battalion. Also do you have any advice on what I should read to understand more what his military experiences wouldve been like? Many thanks, Sally

[kenf48]

12 hours ago, Sally E said:

How do you know his service record didn't survive? 

 

The service records of soldiers who served up until 1920 (excluding Guards) Regiments were stored by the National Archives in a warehouse which was bombed by the Luftwaffe in WW11.  These are known as the 'burnt records'. They were collected up after the fire and eventually microfilmed.  The microfilm was copied by both major genealogical sites, Ancestry and Find My Past.  In addition a number of records were held by the Ministry of Pensions and escaped the fire, 'the pension records'.  Ancestry decided to create two databases, a separate one for each set, FMP a single one.  It is estimated only about one in five records survived the fire, and by the nature of fire a fairly random selection.  If we can't find his record searching the databases it is more than likely a record did not survive the Luftwaffe weeding.

See https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-of-the-first-world-war/

and https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

and https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/interpreting-great-war-army-service-records-general-advice/

 

We can also piece together information from the surviving service records as Chris has done in the post above.  In that example the men listed appear to be original recruits to the 'Service' Battalions raised for the war as part of Kitchener's New Army.  I did  a similar exercise around your man and their 'attestation' showed they enlisted later under the short lived 'Derby or Group Scheme', a bridge between voluntary enlistment and conscription  which was largely a failure

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

We know from his age which Group he was in and therefore roughly when he was mobilised and where to, then regimental number helps to pin down the date and place more closely.  The Battalion is a unit of a few hundred soldiers and a training or reserve Battalion is just that, a home service unit where soldiers were prepared for active service, usually a period of twelve weeks, and then drafted into an active service Battalion overseas.  

Again I suggest you read 'A soldier's life on the LLT.'  It may be possible to identify his draft men did not  usually go out to France in dribs and drabs but in large drafts from the Training/Reserve Battalions.  A work through of how you can do this can be found on the WFA https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/a-draft-of-100-all-boys-from-the-kings-liverpool-regt/

 

Not a quick process and requires a subscription to at least one of the family history sites.

 

The Medal Rolls on Ancestry tell us which unit(s) a soldier served with overseas and the medals awarded can indicate the date if not shown on the Roll (subscription required).

 

BEF  = British Expeditionary Force - i.e. the Army in France and Flanders  (F & F).

 

Wikipedia

 

10th Battalion See http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/welsh-regiment

 

As noted above from this week you can download the war diary for free from TNA at the moment.

 

As for reading, apart from immersing yourself in the Long Long Trail there are many books on a soldier's life recommended is 'Call to Arms' Charles Messenger and 'Tommy' Richard Holmes There are also more academic books and a slew of biographies and memoirs, though most of the contemporary ones were written by officers. It would be remiss not to mention the Great War and Swansea by Bernard who responded to your earlier post

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Swansea-Great-Your-Towns-Cities/dp/1783032944

 

 

I have no connection to Naval and Military Press but fyi they currently have a sale on and you may pick up a bargain.

 

Ken

 

 

[mandy]

On 23/04/2020 at 23:03, kenf48 said:

 

Hi Mandy and welcome to the forum

 

As of this week the war diaries are free to download from TNA (normal price £3.50) or can be found on Ancestry if you subscribe

You need to register with TNA but the link is here

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354158

 

As you have probably found his service record has not survived but there is lots of information on researching a Great War Soldier on the Long Long Trail websiter

link top right or

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/

 

Not exactly sure what it is you want to 'learn more about' but come back if you have any queries after you've looked at the above.

 

Ken

Thank you Ken. Really appreciated.