Tim Birch Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 I am starting a new thread here as some of you may not have noticed the original thread about the Romanovs and the use of DNA in identifying Anestasia, which was becoming hijacked!! http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?s...opic=9470&st=0& It appears that the Unknown Soldier from the Vietnam War who lies in Arlinton National Cemetry has been identified by genetic testing. This seems to fly directly in the face of the concept of an Unknown Warrior. I would be horrified if any suggestion was made to use DNA profiling to identify our Unkown Soldier in Westminster Abbey, bearing in mind that when he was given a State Funeral huge efforts had been made to conceal which part of the Western Front he had been exhumed from. It seems we now have the technology to attempt this. Any views on this practice? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 but i dont suppose it makes any difference as everybody has probably said the same----------i wonder who he was-------he would still be known as the unknown warrior-------it come become highly embarrassing if he was a german picked up by mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 Even if he was DNA tested, with whom would you compare the result? The result tells you nothing apart from the man's DNA pattern. You need someone else's to compare it with. Where would you form the queue of relatives of all the men without a named grave while they awaited testing! I could be wrong here but I believe, in the American case, there was other evidence to point them in the right direction before testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 I don't think that there's any chance that the Unknown Warrior could be identified now or in the immediate future. You need more than just the technology. You would need to come up with a suspected identity first, as all DNA testing does is prove or disprove identity by comparing one person's DNA profile with another's. In the case of the Vietnam Unknown Warrior, there had already been a process of elimination because the soldier was killed in a known action. (I think it was a plane or helicopter crash.) In fact the identity of the soldier was quite firmly established beforehand, and the DNA testing just confirmed the suspicion. This couldn't happen in the case of the UK's Unknown Warrior because of the way the remains were selected all those year ago. It would be impossible to make any deduction which you could then test, because the Unknown Warrior could be any one of the "British and Empire" Missing. The same would be true of the Canadian, Australian etc Unknown Warrior. Of course, there may be a development in the future, where every individual's DNA is on record. Then there'd be no need to work out a possible identity and look for possible relatives. All "suspects" would be in the database somewhere, and it would just be a matter of finding them. THEN all you would need to do is get a sample from the Unknown Warrior and let the computers find a match. There are still a lot of "ifs" in this, of course. One of them would be whether or not researchers would ever be allowed to take a sample from the Unknown Warrior. That's the big question! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 I seriously doubt whether anyone would be allowed to take a sample of his DNA for some time to come. It's still too sensitive an issue. However, I do think that it will happen one day, particularly when it seems inevitable that a future government will one day attempt to set up a UK population DNA database. Am I mistaken in thinking that some people have long suspected that the soldier might not be so unknown afterall, in terms of exactly where the body was found, unit etc? There certainly seem to be differing accounts of the how the body was initially selected. I would be interested to hear the view of other forum members on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 The whole concept of the Unknown mean's just that... by rendering honors to an Unknown our society gives honors to all ... it is a unique part of "modern" warefare and rememberence. The US Congress wouldn't give the US Viet Nam recipient of the CMH to the family because it was given to the Unknown as the Unknown. I don't know about you, but I approve of NOT giving the honor to the family ... it was given to all the missing as the missing. While we may play social games with much ... from the Flag to Janet Jackson ... the CMH stands above all that. But, when it comes to such stuff, nothing is sacred ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 8 February , 2004 Share Posted 8 February , 2004 Leave him in Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 9 February , 2004 Share Posted 9 February , 2004 Is it true that there are no "unknown" US servicemen form the Vietnam War? (I know there are "missing" servicemen, but I heard that all the US remains found have been positively identified). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 9 February , 2004 Share Posted 9 February , 2004 Unknown is unknown and symbolic of all the sea of faces we see on old film. Thos who never returned.. I agree we have the technology but cant compare.. so let them rest in peace... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 9 February , 2004 Share Posted 9 February , 2004 Is it true that there are no "unknown" US servicemen form the Vietnam War? I believe that you are correct in this thought. Certainly as far as those who were killed in South Vietnam and whose bodies were recoverd by US/South Korean search teams either during or after the war. The position is not quite the same for those who were taken prisoner in the the North. Many died as a result of their captivity and the bodies of others were simply not recovered after their aircraft were shot down. In the post war era there were many attempts to recover bodies and a number were returned to the USA. Sadly a number were indentified as non-human remains. For a number of others it was shown scientifically that the corpses had been preserved rather than buried and disinterred. The reason for this has never been made public. There is no doubt that a substantial number of bodies rest in the soil of North Vietnam just as there is no doubt that US POW's were left behind. Wether or not any of them are still alive remains a mystery. Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 9 February , 2004 Share Posted 9 February , 2004 Leave him in Peace. One can only agree with this sentiment. I understand that when the CWGC have given permission for the more recent exhumations for national "Unknown Soldier" purposes, a part of the agreement is that there would be no attempt to identify the soldier in question. Both the Great War and World War II produced large numbers of genuine unknowns. As far as I am aware there has never been any suggestion that an attempt be made to identify those selected to represent the "Unknown Soldier" of their nation The situation in Vietnam was quite different in that there were so few unknowns at the time, that speculation was inevitable. The fault more likely rests with the US Governmant and Military in selecting an an unknown given the circumstances. Both the CWGC and MoD go to great lengths to identify the remains of soldiers who are still found in France and Belgium. I do not know if dna can be extracted from these bodies after so long in the ground. If it could then there would need to be a national database of dna proflies with which it could be compared. Computers would then do the rest. However there is no such thing as a national dna database and until or if there is it's use can only remain speculation. I do understand that the US forces will use dna to identify remains from WWII when an aircraft is recovered with bodies in it or a lone body is found in the Pacific area of warfare. In the aircraft the names are know and in the other case logical deduction can isolate the potential down to a few probabilities. Relatives need to be found and dna provided by them. Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 19 February , 2004 Share Posted 19 February , 2004 When DNA was used to ID the U.S. Vietnam Unknown Warrior it was only used in the latter stages of very long investigation and it was used as the final confirmation of other research. Also the U.S. Government has no intent to peruse identifying the other three service members, from WW1, WW2 & Korea. The cost in attempting to ID the large numbers of unknown warriors from the 20th Century’s Wars would be astronomical. So I don’t think we have any worries about the remaining National Unknown Warriors being identified. By National Unknown Warrior I mean the one who got the state funeral and is lying in the places of honor to represent all the unknowns. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 19 February , 2004 Share Posted 19 February , 2004 The Unknown Warrior and the concept therein should remain exactly that. It would fly in the face of the sacrifices made by the many, for the Warrior to remain anything but Unknown. It is a symbol for a nation, not a study specimen. Spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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