1/7th Black Watch

[andiS]

Does anybody have information on 1/7th Black Watch for march '18 - the long trail shows them has having been involved in dealing with the German offensive from 21st march, and I've been asked to research somebody who was killed on 25th march and is commemorated on the Arras memorial.

I have the CWGC data, and his mic - but I'd like some more background on the events in which he died.

tia

andi

[Black Jock]

Does anybody have information on 1/7th Black Watch for march '18 - the long trail shows them has having been involved in dealing with the German offensive from 21st march, and I've been asked to research somebody who was killed on 25th march and is commemorated on the Arras memorial.

I have the CWGC data, and his mic - but I'd like some more background on the events in which he died.

tia

andi

Andy

Whats your mans name

Tom

[andiS]

Hi Tom

I'm researching:

Penman, Private Peter

350171

Died 26th March 1918

Best wishes

andi

[Tom A McCluskey]

Andi,

He was formerly a Highland Cyclist and is not down as a 7th Black Watch casualty in the diary for March 1918. The Highland Cyclists were formed from the 5th (Perthshire Highland) Volunteer Battalion, The Black Watch; and the 4th (Stirlingshire) Volunteer Battalion, Princess Louise's (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders). This Battalion is sometimes referred to as the 8th Bn Royal Highlanders (Cyclists).

It looks like Penman came from the Argyll part of the recruiting area (Stirling) for the Highland Cyclists. Regardless of that the Highland Cyclists came unde the umbrella of The Black Watch Territorial Force. Incidentally, name Penman is popular in the counties of Fife and Stirlingshire.

From the Diary:-

5th Day

25th March 1918

The day opened quietly and continued so until 10 a.m. when parties of Germans – 5 to 6 – strong were seen moving along the BAPAUME-ALBERT ROAD and advancing in the direction of GREVILLERS WOOD. These parties were engaged form our shell-hole positions.

During the forenoon the 19th Division commenced to retire through us and the enemy shelled our positions in front of LOUPART WOOD but without inflicting very heavy casualties.

Between 1 and 2 o’clock the BRIGADE on the RIGHT commenced to retire, rallied, and finally retired again. Our position was then put under enfilade MG fire and the enemy having got round on our RIGHT FLANK we retired through LOUPART WOOD in the direction of PYS and held a position on the ridge between IRLEE and PYS. It was during this retiral that Lt. Col. S. R. McLintock was wounded. From this time onwards the Battalion became mixed with other units of the DIVISION and the officers took command of the COMPOSITE FORCE until they eventually retired and occupied a position in rear of the 62nd DIVISION where they occupied slits until PIONEERS of this Division were ready to occupy them.

About 12 midnight the force was relieved and moved back to rejoin the remainder of the Division which it eventually succeeded in doing on the 27th March 1918.

From Wauchope:-

The stand at Bancourt had been long enough to allow the 19th Division to take up another position, and the trenches in Loupart Wood again became the support line. The night passed quietly, but the enemy attack was resumed again on the morning of the 25th. Again the 19th Division held out until the afternoon, when, as before, the few survivors of the 7th, with what remained of the 51st Division, were again face to face with the Germans. Once more, with both flanks turned, the division was obliged to withdraw and then took up another on the ridge between Irles and Pys. The 7th then ceased to be a unit in itself, and became part of the composite “51st Division Force.”

At dusk on the 25th a further withdrawal took place to a position in support of the 62nd Division, and here the composite force remained till midnight when it was finally relieved and the survivors of the 7th marched back in two parties. The first under Major Keir, who had taken over command when Lieutenant-Colonel McClintock had been wounded, reached Hebuterne on the night of the 26th; the second party moved to Colincamps and then to Pas, where it spent the night of the 26th.

On the 27th the Battalion reassembled at Barly, where it was joined by the Quartermaster and transport, and reorganisation was carried out, although by this time each company consisted of only a handful of men. On the 29th the Battalion entrained at Frevent for Lillers and marched from there to billets in Burbue.

Such is the story of the 7th during the great German offensive. The losses suffered by the Battalion were, as far as can be ascertained, 23 officers and 627 other ranks out of 39 officers and 941 other ranks. For their services during this fighting three officers and 13 other ranks received decorations.

Incidentally and bizarrely, on the 23rd the Germans were dropping messages by aeroplane stating the extent of their advance, and additionally a message stating: "Good old 51st. Still sticking it?"

Anyway, hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

[Guest m19ichelle77]

Andi,

He was formerly a Highland Cyclist and is not down as a 7th Black Watch casualty in the diary for March 1918. The Highland Cyclists were formed from the 5th (Perthshire Highland) Volunteer Battalion, The Black Watch; and the 4th (Stirlingshire) Volunteer Battalion, Princess Louise's (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders). This Battalion is sometimes referred to as the 8th Bn Royal Highlanders (Cyclists).

It looks like Penman came from the Argyll part of the recruiting area (Stirling) for the Highland Cyclists. Regardless of that the Highland Cyclists came unde the umbrella of The Black Watch Territorial Force. Incidentally, name Penman is popular in the counties of Fife and Stirlingshire.

From the Diary:-

5th Day

25th March 1918

The day opened quietly and continued so until 10 a.m. when parties of Germans – 5 to 6 – strong were seen moving along the BAPAUME-ALBERT ROAD and advancing in the direction of GREVILLERS WOOD. These parties were engaged form our shell-hole positions.

During the forenoon the 19th Division commenced to retire through us and the enemy shelled our positions in front of LOUPART WOOD but without inflicting very heavy casualties.

Between 1 and 2 o'clock the BRIGADE on the RIGHT commenced to retire, rallied, and finally retired again. Our position was then put under enfilade MG fire and the enemy having got round on our RIGHT FLANK we retired through LOUPART WOOD in the direction of PYS and held a position on the ridge between IRLEE and PYS. It was during this retiral that Lt. Col. S. R. McLintock was wounded. From this time onwards the Battalion became mixed with other units of the DIVISION and the officers took command of the COMPOSITE FORCE until they eventually retired and occupied a position in rear of the 62nd DIVISION where they occupied slits until PIONEERS of this Division were ready to occupy them.

About 12 midnight the force was relieved and moved back to rejoin the remainder of the Division which it eventually succeeded in doing on the 27th March 1918.

From Wauchope:-

The stand at Bancourt had been long enough to allow the 19th Division to take up another position, and the trenches in Loupart Wood again became the support line. The night passed quietly, but the enemy attack was resumed again on the morning of the 25th. Again the 19th Division held out until the afternoon, when, as before, the few survivors of the 7th, with what remained of the 51st Division, were again face to face with the Germans. Once more, with both flanks turned, the division was obliged to withdraw and then took up another on the ridge between Irles and Pys. The 7th then ceased to be a unit in itself, and became part of the composite "51st Division Force."

At dusk on the 25th a further withdrawal took place to a position in support of the 62nd Division, and here the composite force remained till midnight when it was finally relieved and the survivors of the 7th marched back in two parties. The first under Major Keir, who had taken over command when Lieutenant-Colonel McClintock had been wounded, reached Hebuterne on the night of the 26th; the second party moved to Colincamps and then to Pas, where it spent the night of the 26th.

On the 27th the Battalion reassembled at Barly, where it was joined by the Quartermaster and transport, and reorganisation was carried out, although by this time each company consisted of only a handful of men. On the 29th the Battalion entrained at Frevent for Lillers and marched from there to billets in Burbue.

Such is the story of the 7th during the great German offensive. The losses suffered by the Battalion were, as far as can be ascertained, 23 officers and 627 other ranks out of 39 officers and 941 other ranks. For their services during this fighting three officers and 13 other ranks received decorations.

Incidentally and bizarrely, on the 23rd the Germans were dropping messages by aeroplane stating the extent of their advance, and additionally a message stating: "Good old 51st. Still sticking it?"

Anyway, hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

Andi/Tom,

Please can you contact me, Private Peter Penman 350171 was my great grandfather. I have spent the last 3 years doing family history and never finding anything about my own family - until over the last couple of days the floodgates have opened, leading to a whole wealth of history I didn't know about.

Andi - what is your relationship to Peter - I take it we may be distantly related.

Michelle

[gordontaos]

The War Diary posts have been very interesting. My Great Uncle, Pte Thomas Spence of the 1st/7th was captured and died while a prisoner of the Germans on April 2, 1918 in Abancourt, France.

My guess is that he was probably captured on the 21st or shortly thereafter.

How would I find the War Diary entries for March 20-24?

Also, how would I go about researching German activity in Abancourt? There has been some educated speculation that Pte. Spence was assigned to a work detail there when he died, possibly as the result of friendly fire.

Thanks so much!

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gordon,

Thomas Spence was listed as among the wounded and missing between the days of 21-26 March 1918. The casualty list was compiled and then reported on the 31 March 1918. As you can see, Thomas was in 'A' Company.

The War Diary for the 7th Black Watch is not online, unfortunately. The diary is kept at the National Archives and exists in several files. I think there may be a typed copy at RHQ, Balhousie Castle, Perth. The search facility, found using the following link, is (I think) the easiest method to source the file reference for a battalion diary - and see if it is online: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-subject/firstworldwar.htm

I hope this is of use.

Aye,

Tom McC

[Excerpt is courtesy of the PRO and subject to the conditions of Crown Copyright]

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gordon,

As I was was going through my photos, I chanced across a photo of Thomas's grave marker at Flesquières Hill. The photo dates from February 2008.

I hope this is of use.

Aye,

Tom McC

[gordontaos]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Now I know that he was in A Coy it will make the research that much more compelling. Thanks also for the great photo.

Do you routinely go around taking pictures of grave markers?

Gordon

Gordon,

As I was was going through my photos, I chanced across a photo of Thomas's grave marker at Flesquières Hill. The photo dates from February 2008.

I hope this is of use.

Aye,

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gordon,

When touring the battlefields and chance across a Black Watch grave marker, then yes, I take a photo.

Aye,

Tom McC

[gordontaos]

You folks are a wealth of information. I am attempting to recreate Pte. Thomas Spence's last days. I would like to write up a little something for the occasion of his name being inscribed on the War Memorial at Murroes, Angus. It appears as if it very well may happen this year.

On page 277 of "The History of the 51st (Highland) Division, 1914-1918" Bewsher says, "When the remnants of the 7th Black Watch were assembled in this line " (Beaumetz-Morchies Line), " it was found that out of three companies there were only twenty-eight survivors."

My interpretation of this statement is that Bewsher is writing about Nov. 21. If so, statistically, Pte Spence was captured on Nov. 21. Does this sound accurate?

Also, the map on page 274 of the same book shows that the 1/7 was defending a 500 yard front. Was that a normal size area for a Battalion to handle?

At this point in the war the 1/7 was down to three companies. Do we have daily returns to indicate what strength the 1/7 was actually at on that day?

Are you aware of any references or maps that show where exactly A Coy was on that day?

Finally, Pte Spence had two military ID numbers indicating that he enlisted prior to 1917, (is this accurate?). Can we tell from his first ID number when he might have enlisted? My grandfather indicated that Pte. Thomas Spence had a job that was initially considered to be critical to the war effort (he was the barnsman for a large auctioneer in Perth), and did not enlist until after the first year. He also indicated that Thomas initially enlisted with the Marquis of Tullybardine, but was then sent as a replacement to the 1/7. Might there be a way to shed more light onto that portion of his time in the service?

Thanks in advance,

Gordon

PS Can someone please enlighten this Yank as to the meaning, etc. of "Aye" at the end of a missive?

[gordontaos]

I was remiss in not providing Pte. Spence's two Service Numbers.

the first is:6547

The second is:292702

Thanks yet again!

Gordon

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gordon,

'Aye' is a shortening of 'Yours aye' (Yours ever): a shortened Scottish way of saying 'regards'.

Yours aye,

Tom McC

PS - I will get back to you with more about the 7th Black Watch, shortly.

[gordontaos]

You folks are a wealth of information. I am attempting to recreate Pte. Thomas Spence's last days. I would like to write up a little something for the occasion of his name being inscribed on the War Memorial at Murroes, Angus. It appears as if it very well may happen this year.

On page 277 of "The History of the 51st (Highland) Division, 1914-1918" Bewsher says, "When the remnants of the 7th Black Watch were assembled in this line " (Beaumetz-Morchies Line), " it was found that out of three companies there were only twenty-eight survivors."

My interpretation of this statement is that Bewsher is writing about Nov. 21. If so, statistically, Pte Spence was captured on Nov. 21. Does this sound accurate?

Also, the map on page 274 of the same book shows that the 1/7 was defending a 500 yard front. Was that a normal size area for a Battalion to handle?

At this point in the war the 1/7 was down to three companies. Do we have daily returns to indicate what strength the 1/7 was actually at on that day?

Are you aware of any references or maps that show where exactly A Coy was on that day?

Finally, Pte Spence had two military ID numbers indicating that he enlisted prior to 1917, (is this accurate?). Can we tell from his first ID number when he might have enlisted? My grandfather indicated that Pte. Thomas Spence had a job that was initially considered to be critical to the war effort (he was the barnsman for a large auctioneer in Perth), and did not enlist until after the first year. He also indicated that Thomas initially enlisted with the Marquis of Tullybardine, but was then sent as a replacement to the 1/7. Might there be a way to shed more light onto that portion of his time in the service?

Thanks in advance,

Gordon

PS Can someone please enlighten this Yank as to the meaning, etc. of "Aye" at the end of a missive?

I have decided that with a little bit of mathematics, and more than a bit of supposition, that perhaps I can answer one portion of my own question.

1/7th was defending a 500 yd. stretch of front. Assuming that they were at full strength, or close to it, (I do not beleive that they had been in heavy action in the past 3 months), they might have had 3 Coys with a combined strength of 750 men. If one Coy was on the front line trench, that would have given them 250 men, or one every six feet. The map also shows that there were four machine guns covering this section, or one for every 375 feet.

That would leave the second Coy of 250 or so men to handle the support trenches, along with four more machine guns.

Finally, the third Coy would perhaps be in reserve.

In my mind at least, this appears to be a well defended area, assuming that there were no casualties from the heaviest bombardment of the the war, Other writers have implied that the type and extent of the bombardment that morning would have caused a significant number of men to have been incapable of responding to the attack.

It is interesting to note that at the end of the chapter on the offensive, that Bewsher points out one of their failings. Apparantly the dirt from the trench construction was just thrown up around the sides and rear of all of the trenches. While the men had a good field of fire towards the front, they had virtually no vision or field of fire to the rear or flanks. Thus the men were not able to defend against attacks from those directions, which is actually where the attacks appear to have come from. Bewsher states that this failure was identified and no other trench system built by the 51st ever had that problem again.

Since I am an absolute Newby I welcome response and criticism to these thoughts.

[gordontaos]

Here is a photo of Pte Spence's parents' grave marker that also commemorates him. It was graciously provided by Ian Edwards of Montrose, Angus, Scotland.

The grave marker is in the cemetery in Alyth, Perth and Kinross.

[dycer]

It is interesting to note that at the end of the chapter on the offensive, that Bewsher points out one of their failings. Apparantly the dirt from the trench construction was just thrown up around the sides and rear of all of the trenches. While the men had a good field of fire towards the front, they had virtually no vision or field of fire to the rear or flanks. Thus the men were not able to defend against attacks from those directions, which is actually where the attacks appear to have come from. Bewsher states that this failure was identified and no other trench system built by the 51st ever had that problem again.

Since I am an absolute Newby I welcome response and criticism to these thoughts.

Gordon,

To give some idea of the reality,from the 8th Royal Scots History(Pioneer Battalion to the 51st(Highland)Division).

Beugny and Beaumetz.

"From December 1917 to March 1918,the Battalion,except for a short period in the end of January and beginning of February,constructed the major part of the defences in the Louveral-Boursies-Demicourt sector.The value of these was subsequently proved during the enemy offensive towards the end of March.It was here,too that the "H.D." pattern of wire entanglement was first erected by the Battalion,and which proved such a formidable obstacle.

During these months,the Battalion worked at high pressure,and,although they knew they would be required to assist in the defence of the line should the enemy attack,they could find no time for training."

George

[gordontaos]

Gordon,

To give some idea of the reality,from the 8th Royal Scots History(Pioneer Battalion to the 51st(Highland)Division).

Beugny and Beaumetz.

"From December 1917 to March 1918,the Battalion,except for a short period in the end of January and beginning of February,constructed the major part of the defences in the Louveral-Boursies-Demicourt sector.The value of these was subsequently proved during the enemy offensive towards the end of March.It was here,too that the "H.D." pattern of wire entanglement was first erected by the Battalion,and which proved such a formidable obstacle.

During these months,the Battalion worked at high pressure,and,although they knew they would be required to assist in the defence of the line should the enemy attack,they could find no time for training."

George

I am new to this forum, and really do not know much at all about this subject. As you can see from all of my posts, most of them are rather uneducated questions. But this particular statement seems to fly in the face of, what I believe, are the facts. It appears to me that since the defenses at Louveral were breeched with relative ease by the Germans, that "The HD pattern of wire entanglement" did not present much of an obstacle at all. As I recall, Bewsher states in his History of the 51st that the 1/7th was flanked and only realized it after they saw the German troops already in their area. I also recall reading that artillery barrages (such as the one preceeding the attack that morning), had limited effect on barbed wire entanglements. Now perhaps the reason that the 1/7th was flanked was because their frontal defense was so strong. But I do not believe that the losses on that morning verify the statement that "the value of these was subsequently prooved". In my uneducated mind its kind of like prooving the effectiveness of the Maginot Line because the Germans had to go around it.

I am more than willing to learn from this discourse, and promise not to flog dead horses nor to resort to technicalities. Since my Grandfather was in the 10th DCLI Cornish Pioneers I am anxious to learn more about the Pioneers and in no way denigrate their efforts..

Gordon

[dycer]

Gordon,

The Pioneer History was written in 1919 by a Newspaper so I would agree it is influenced both by journalese and post-War euphoria.

However a few questions you have to consider,in the lead up to the attack, and I'm afraid I don't know the answers.

What was the length and depth of the line the 1000 men of the Pioneer Battalion dug in three months,how did the uncertainty of possible disbandment and reduction to three Companies affect their morale and organisation plus the knowledge that an attack may be imminent,what were the weather and ground conditions like plus enemy activity in the lead up to the German advance?

George

Add,I have p.m'd. you to offer you a copy of the 8th Royal Scots History but their view of the 21st March and subsequent few days.

"They first came into contact with the enemy on the Morchies-Beametz line,and repelled enemy attacks there.On the afternoon of the 22nd,the enemy made a heavy attack from Morchies,which was counteracted by our tanks,and so enabled the Battalion to make a slight advance,and keep in close contact with the enemy during the night.While our posts held him in check,the Battalion withdrew to the "Red Line,"east of Bancourt,where they strengthened and organised the position.

It is impossible to estimate the casualties inflicted on the enemy,as time and again he was caught in close formation and his masses of men were staggered again and again by the withering fire brought to bear on them."

[gordontaos]

In order to get more or less back on track, I am going to pose this question again.

On page 277 of "The History of the 51st (Highland) Division, 1914-1918" Bewsher says, "When the remnants of the 7th Black Watch were assembled in this line " (Beaumetz-Morchies Line), " it was found that out of three companies there were only twenty-eight survivors."

My interpretation of this statement is that Bewsher is writing about Nov. 21. If so, statistically, Pte Spence was captured on Nov. 21. Does this sound accurate?

Gordon

[dycer]

Gordon,

Can you confirm Nov.21 or do you mean March 21?

George

[gordontaos]

Gordon,

Can you confirm Nov.21 or do you mean March 21?

George

WHOOPS! Thanks for the catch. Its March 21, 1918.

Gordon

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gordon,

I recall you being after this information, so here it is: 7th Black Watch Diary Entries for the 21-26th March 1918:

Merry Christmas,

Aye,

Tom McC

--------------------------------

1/7th Black Watch (R.H.)

Narrative of Battle

21st March 1918 to 26th March 1918

Dispostions:-

C and D Companies in FRONT, SUPPORT and RESERVE lines.

B Coy plus 1 platoon of A Coy in INTERMEDIATE Line.

A Coy less 1 platoon in BEAUMETZ-MORCHIES Line.

1st Day

21st March 1918.

At 5am the enemy opened the attack with a bombardment on our FRONT and SUPPORT LINES of Gas and HE.

By 7am all communication between D Coy and BATTALION HQ had ceased to exist.

At 10am the bombardment slackened off on the FRONT and SUPPORT LINES but all trace of our front trenches was, by this time, practically obliterated. During the whole period 5am – 10am heavy barrages were kept upon the INTERMEDIATE and BEAUMETZ-MORCHIES LINES.

Enemy INFANTRY were first seen advancing at 10am from the sector on our left, and shortly afterwards further bodies were seen advancing up the valley on our Right flank.

Our front line was penetrated first on the left and parties of the enemy commenced to bomb down the FRONT LINE from RAT ALLEY. The garrisons opened fire with rifles and grenades but were unable to hold the massed onslaught of the Germans.

As they were pressed back the garrisons of the front line POSTS retired, some over the parados and the remainder down the FRONT LINE towards RABBIT ALLEY.

In the retiral the survivors of Posts 33 and 35 became attached to the 4th SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS. One survivor form Post 34 attempted to reach BATTALION HQ with a report on the situation but got cut off at Post 28 (INTERMEDIATE LINE) and remained with the 6th BLACK WATCH (RH). The garrison of Post 36 was entirely lost.

Of those who retired along the FRONT LINE, many appear to have been lost by taking DEAD ENDS and few ever reached Post 26.

The SUPPORT LINE were not aware of the enemy attack until his INFANTRY appeared in front of the trench, coming from both flanks.

Effective rifle and Lewis gun fire was opened by the garrison and heavy enemy losses are claimed. The Germans continued to attack in massed formation and the survivors from the garrison of the SUPPORT LINE were forced to withdraw to the INTERMEDIATE LINE at about 1030am.

The next stand was made at Posts 26 and 27 by men of C and D Coys, who had succeeded in reaching these posts together with B Coy.

This position was also eventually outflanked and the Garrisons fell back on the Sunken Road LAGNICOURT-LOUVERVAL, where another stand was made in conjunction with details of the 6th and 7th BLACK WATCH (RH) Battalion Headquarters’.

The position was steadily shelled and in face of persistent pressure the only forces holding the road were forced to withdraw across the open towards the BEAUMETZ-MORCHIES LINE which was occupied about 3pm.

The men who had become detached, during the fighting in the FRONT LINE and had found the 4th SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS, now returned to the Battalion and a roll was taken.

It was found that there remained about 28 men of B, C and D Coys.

About 4pm, a small party of the enemy got into the forward gun pits in advance of our position and took some prisoners of the 6th BLACK WATCH. Later, one German advanced to our barbed wire. He was fired on, wounded and taken prisoner.

Later in the afternoon enemy transport and limbers were observed bringing up supplies.

During the night 21st-22nd March the enemy artillery was generally quiet. There was a very heavy mist and a hostile patrol attempted to cut our wire, but was fired on dispersed.

Rations and ammunition were brought up to the SUNKEN ROAD during the night and motor ambulances evacuated wounded from the same place.

2nd DAY.

22nd MARCH 1918.

A heavy mist made visibility impossible up till about 9am when it commenced to clear and by about 9.30am visibility was good.

At this time the enemy could be seen collecting outside the wire on our left flank. Fire was at once opened and he commenced to retire till under cover.

Exact times when events happened now become uncertain but at three periods during the day our garrisons “stood to”, on the opening of the hostile barrage but no attack developed in force.

Shortly after 5pm the enemy put down a 4th barrage on our trenches and at the same time he delivered a very determined attack. His airmen co-operated in this attack, with great daring, flying at very low altitude and firing his MG into our positions.

The attack developed with the greatest intensity on our Left Flanks which broke under the pressure. The enemy, eagerly, got MGs in position and when the last Post on the left gave way the garrison holding the Right of the BRIGADE FRONT was forced to evacuate the BEAUMETZ-MORCHIES LINE and the SUNKEN ROAD and take up a position on the SOUTH of the BAPAUME-CAMBRAI ROAD and facing NORTH.

From this position the Germans could be seen at various points, advancing on BEUGNY and later small parties were seen on the BAPAUME-CAMBRAI ROAD to the WEST of the CRUCIFIX.

These parties were fired on, but continued to advance and our force holding the CAMBRAI ROAD were forced to withdraw to BEAUMETZ & there to take up a position just N. [North] of the village and covering the CAMBRAI ROAD.

A certain number of the garrison of the BEAUMETZ-MORCHIES LINE now retired and occupied a position in ‘slits’ in advance of FREMICOURT LEBUCIERE .

The night of the 22-23 March passed quietly without incident.

3rd DAY.

23rd MARCH 1918.

The strength of the Battalion at this point was:-

The Commanding Officer

The Adjutant

30 Other Ranks

This force took up a position in old GERMAN TRENCHES to the EAST of BANCOURT. During the afternoon Echelon “B” was sent forward and occupied a shell-hole position on the WEST side of BANCOURT.

The day passed very quietly and hot rations were brought up in the evening.

4th DAY.

24th MARCH 1918.

With the exception of intermittent shelling, the forenoon was quiet. During the afternoon, supports of the 19th DIVISION who were in front of us were seen returning and acting on orders received. Battalion Headquarters took up the position vacated by BRIGADE HQ at about 1135 Central.

The 19th Division retired through us and the garrison of the RED LINE retired on the shell-hole position W. of BANCOURT.

About 7pm the enemy came round on the RIGHT FLANK and we were forced to retire to a position S.W. of BAPAUME, where the remnants of the Battalion were gathered together and marched to LOUPART WOOD where a shell-hole position was held N.W. of the wood. The Battalion remained here throughout the night, which passed quietly, in SUPPORT to the 19th DIVISION.

5th DAY.

25th MARCH 1918.

The day opened quietly and continued so till about 10am when parties of Germans – 5 to 6 strong – were seen moving along the BAPUME-ALBERT ROAD, and advancing in the direction of GREVILLERS WOOD. These parties were engaged from our shell-hole positions.

During the forenoon the 19th DIVISION commenced to retire through us and the enemy shelled our positions in front of LOUPART WOOD but without inflicting very heavy casualties.

Between 1 and 2 o’clock the BRIGADE on the right commenced to retire, rallied and finally retired again. Our position then came under enfilade MG fire and the enemy having got round on our RIGHT FLANK we retired through LOUPART WOOD in the direction of PYS and held a position on the ridge between IRLES and PYS. It was during this retiral that Lieut. Col. McLINTOCK was wounded. From this time onwards the Battalion became mixed with the other units of the DIVISION and the officers present took command of the COMPOSITE FORCE until they eventually retired and occupied a position in rear of the 62nd DIVISION where they occupied slits until such time as the pioneers of this Division were ready to occupy them.

About 12 midnight the force was relieved and moved back to re-join the remainder of the Division which it eventually succeeded in doing on 27th March 1918.

----------------------

[ph0ebus]

QUOTE (Tom A McCluskey @ Apr 10 2008, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Andi,

He was formerly a Highland Cyclist and is not down as a 7th Black Watch casualty in the diary for March 1918. The Highland Cyclists were formed from the 5th (Perthshire Highland) Volunteer Battalion, The Black Watch; and the 4th (Stirlingshire) Volunteer Battalion, Princess Louise's (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders). This Battalion is sometimes referred to as the 8th Bn Royal Highlanders (Cyclists).

It looks like Penman came from the Argyll part of the recruiting area (Stirling) for the Highland Cyclists. Regardless of that the Highland Cyclists came unde the umbrella of The Black Watch Territorial Force. Incidentally, name Penman is popular in the counties of Fife and Stirlingshire.

From the Diary:-

5th Day

25th March 1918

The day opened quietly and continued so until 10 a.m. when parties of Germans – 5 to 6 – strong were seen moving along the BAPAUME-ALBERT ROAD and advancing in the direction of GREVILLERS WOOD. These parties were engaged form our shell-hole positions.

During the forenoon the 19th Division commenced to retire through us and the enemy shelled our positions in front of LOUPART WOOD but without inflicting very heavy casualties.

Between 1 and 2 o'clock the BRIGADE on the RIGHT commenced to retire, rallied, and finally retired again. Our position was then put under enfilade MG fire and the enemy having got round on our RIGHT FLANK we retired through LOUPART WOOD in the direction of PYS and held a position on the ridge between IRLEE and PYS. It was during this retiral that Lt. Col. S. R. McLintock was wounded. From this time onwards the Battalion became mixed with other units of the DIVISION and the officers took command of the COMPOSITE FORCE until they eventually retired and occupied a position in rear of the 62nd DIVISION where they occupied slits until PIONEERS of this Division were ready to occupy them.

About 12 midnight the force was relieved and moved back to rejoin the remainder of the Division which it eventually succeeded in doing on the 27th March 1918.

From Wauchope:-

The stand at Bancourt had been long enough to allow the 19th Division to take up another position, and the trenches in Loupart Wood again became the support line. The night passed quietly, but the enemy attack was resumed again on the morning of the 25th. Again the 19th Division held out until the afternoon, when, as before, the few survivors of the 7th, with what remained of the 51st Division, were again face to face with the Germans. Once more, with both flanks turned, the division was obliged to withdraw and then took up another on the ridge between Irles and Pys. The 7th then ceased to be a unit in itself, and became part of the composite "51st Division Force."

At dusk on the 25th a further withdrawal took place to a position in support of the 62nd Division, and here the composite force remained till midnight when it was finally relieved and the survivors of the 7th marched back in two parties. The first under Major Keir, who had taken over command when Lieutenant-Colonel McClintock had been wounded, reached Hebuterne on the night of the 26th; the second party moved to Colincamps and then to Pas, where it spent the night of the 26th.

On the 27th the Battalion reassembled at Barly, where it was joined by the Quartermaster and transport, and reorganisation was carried out, although by this time each company consisted of only a handful of men. On the 29th the Battalion entrained at Frevent for Lillers and marched from there to billets in Burbue.

Such is the story of the 7th during the great German offensive. The losses suffered by the Battalion were, as far as can be ascertained, 23 officers and 627 other ranks out of 39 officers and 941 other ranks. For their services during this fighting three officers and 13 other ranks received decorations.

Incidentally and bizarrely, on the 23rd the Germans were dropping messages by aeroplane stating the extent of their advance, and additionally a message stating: "Good old 51st. Still sticking it?"

Anyway, hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

Andi/Tom,

Please can you contact me, Private Peter Penman 350171 was my great grandfather. I have spent the last 3 years doing family history and never finding anything about my own family - until over the last couple of days the floodgates have opened, leading to a whole wealth of history I didn't know about.

Andi - what is your relationship to Peter - I take it we may be distantly related.

Michelle

Andi and Michelle

,

I am late to this thread, as I did not know until five minutes ago that Peter Penman was my 2nd Cousin, thrice Removed. I hope either or both of you are still on the forum!

I was seeing what information was available online, and as it always seems to do, my research took me straight back to the GWF.

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

On 3/30/2008 at 06:21, andiS said:

Hi Tom

I'm researching:

Penman, Private Peter

350171

Died 26th March 1918

Best wishes

andi

Hi Andi, Michelle

 

Just revisiting this thread; Peter was my 3rd cousin twice removed.  I hope you are still on the GWF and we can exchange some info!

 

I would assume you would also know about the other Penman in the Black Watch, Alexander Penman, who died in 1915?

 

https://cowdenbeathwarmemorial.wordpress.com/p/

 

-Daniel

[Guest]

Daniel,

 

hello cousin! Better late than never!

 

would love to hear from you and thanks for the great link - I was kindly sent the dvd for the unveiling of the Cowdenbeath memorial which contains great grandads name.

 

Several years later I have lots of info on the Penmans I’d be happy to share.

 

 Michelle