wyliecoyote Posted 11 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Paul Like the new avatar, is that the Kat? Cool! Geo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Little has been written about the Ersatzbataillone; while the literature invariably mentions their existence, it seldom offers organizational detail. The I. Ersatzbataillon served the active unit, the II. Ersatzbataillon served the units Reserve counterpart, and the III. Ersatzbataillon handled Landwehr regiment or battalion. I wish you had the source!!! :wacko: I totally agree that very little has been written about this but I do not think that this organization is correct. The base problem with this concept is that it assumes there is a linear relationship between active, reserve and Landwehr. I used to believe that also it just is not so. For the 23rd infantry Regiment there was not always a 23rd reserve regiment and there was not always a 23rd Landwehr Regiment. Just a quick comparison of the number of regiments of each type will show you a disconnect. My understanding is active regiments had two ersatz battalions, Landwehr and reserve regiments had one. This really gets dicey as not everybody actually even had one with some units getting their replacements from other ersatz battalions. in addition ersatz battalions were used to form new units. Then of course the system changed. This system stayed in place only until the beginning of 1915. Up until that time recruits moved directly from their regimental depot to the units at the front. A new organization known as a field recruit depot (Feld Rekruten Depot) became an advanced replacement center at the front. After one to three months training at home in the Ersatz Battalion, recruits were sent to the field recruit depot where their training was completed. From there they were sent to the front. Wounded soldiers returning to the front would also pass through the field recruit depot to learn the latest techniques. There were times when entire recruit companies were used to fill the gap in the line during critical times. Most field recruit depots were associated with divisions. Recruits arrived as a combined draft from the home depots and were distributed as required among the regiments. Therefore you can easily see how someone who trained with Regiment A. could easily be assigned to Regiment B. Of course this is only my understanding and I probably have a lot of it wrong anyway! But this sure is a great discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Geo; Re: your scans of mail stamps above; are you particularly interested in Feldpost? Do you collect them? Are you aware of the Feldpost working group of the German stamp collecting society? Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliecoyote Posted 11 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Geo; Re: your scans of mail stamps above; are you particularly interested in Feldpost? Do you collect them? Are you aware of the Feldpost working group of the German stamp collecting society? Bob Lembke Bob I collect postcards, my main interest is of soldiers armed with Commission system rifles, the Gewehr 88, Karabiner 88, and the Gewehr 91. Here is the one that sparked this thread, of a small group of men holding a sign, which has faded out and appears blank now, cancellation is from "Rekr. Depot L.I.R. 61. Dated 23 Oktober 1914, Graudenz 3." First the cancallation: And the photo of the soldiers, which is curious in itself, it could be one of those cases of not having enough clarity to the photo, but the one shoulder strap that is visible on the man at right appears to be blank, but can not be sure even with scan blown up larger. Plain shoulder strap is generally a sign for Landsturm, and wearing tschako's they look like it too. Joe I think the opposite, you have a lot right. I think we are all on the right path, and we will all end up with a better understanding with all the information being brought to the "table". Another case of when dealing with the Imperial German Military System, nothing was etched in stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Not an expert in this, but isn't the Landsturm cross an absolute indicator of them being Landsturm? Did any other class of soldier wear that cross? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 I wish you had the source!!! :wacko: I totally agree that very little has been written about this but I do not think that this organization is correct. The base problem with this concept is that it assumes there is a linear relationship between active, reserve and Landwehr. I used to believe that also it just is not so. For the 23rd infantry Regiment there was not always a 23rd reserve regiment and there was not always a 23rd Landwehr Regiment. Just a quick comparison of the number of regiments of each type will show you a disconnect. My understanding is active regiments had two ersatz battalions, Landwehr and reserve regiments had one. This really gets dicey as not everybody actually even had one with some units getting their replacements from other ersatz battalions. in addition ersatz battalions were used to form new units. Then of course the system changed. Of course this is only my understanding and I probably have a lot of it wrong anyway! But this sure is a great discussion! Joe, You could be exactly right. The fact that I found it in a word file looking somewhat HTML tells me I found it on the internet somewhere, so we don't know who wrote it! This is a subject I know very little about, and I've seen little in print to go on....not "sexy" enough I guess to warrant it's own section in some book on the German Army. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliecoyote Posted 11 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Not an expert in this, but isn't the Landsturm cross an absolute indicator of them being Landsturm? Did any other class of soldier wear that cross? Bob Bob Believe it or not they are really Landwehr Crosses! Prior to 1899, the Landwehr wore the leather Tschako with the Landwehr Cross, and the backing plate was in the colors of the state or Land the Regiment was from. For example, the backing plate on a Prussian Landwehr Regiment helmet was black and white. An exception to this rule were Hessian regiments which appear in old photos with only a larger Landwehr Cross on their tschako helmets. Old Landwehr tschakos that had been stored away after the Landwehr were authorized to wear pickelhauben starting in October, 1899, were taken back out of storage and issued to the Landsturm starting in 1914 to supplement shortages of oilcloth hats or wachstuchmutzen. Ersatz reservisten wore an identical tschako. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Ersatz reservisten wore an identical tschako. You are enamored with these guys lol :rolleyes: some did but most did not. Most of these guys were fillers, yes there were some units of them, but the vast majority went to other units-- I may have sent you this before. The large bulk of the reserve and Landwehr soldiers were absorbed in the initial expansion of the Army which took place in July and August 1914. By September 1914 the Ersatz Reserve filled out the new formation reserve divisions. The class of 1914 was called up basically on time at the end of September 1914. They were inducted into the military along with the Restanten of the 1914 muster and mixed in with certain Kriegsfreiwillige. Their induction took over three months as they filled the depots after the Ersatz Reserve. This resulted in approximately a million recruits. They had three or four months training and refilled the existing units as well as created reserve divisions numbered 75 to 82 as well as the Bavarian eighth infantry division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliecoyote Posted 11 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2008 Ah yes Joe, but this chap DID! At first glance one might think this soldier was Landsturm due to his tschako, the shoulderboards tell us different, they have 159 on them. There was no 159th Landsturm Btn., there was not a 159th Landwehr Regt. either. He is a Ersatz Reserve man of the Ersatz Btn. of the 159th Infantry Regt. I have to admit I have taken greater notice of the Ersatz Reserve since I picked up a Doughboy bringback Gewehr 88/S that is regimented to the R.E.1.26. Reserve Ersatz Batln. 1 26th waffe (weapon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 He is a Ersatz Reserve man of the Ersatz Btn. of the 159th Infantry Regt. or could he be from the Landsturm? A replacement for infantry Regiment 159? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 The problem is that Ersatz battalions were used to form new regiments, numbered from 349 to 382. Ersatz Batallion means trained or partially trained men, they are potentiAl new units. May be wrong, but to me the man with the Landwehr Cross on his shako, is Landwehr. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 The problem is that Ersatz battalions were used to form new regiments, numbered from 349 to 382. I don't think that's a problem. God I love this stuff!!! I have to go to family weekend at my daughter's college -- so I won't see this for a few days to finish the research but I looked at those regiments quickly -- formed in 1915 from ersatz battalions I did not find an infantry Regiment 349 though. More to follow... Landwehr units had been wearing a helmet since the turn of the century. They were instructed to keep their shakos and we saw them again in 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliecoyote Posted 12 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2008 The problem is that Ersatz battalions were used to form new regiments, numbered from 349 to 382. Ersatz Batallion means trained or partially trained men, they are potentiAl new units. May be wrong, but to me the man with the Landwehr Cross on his shako, is Landwehr. Cnock When I first picked up this photo I thought he was Landwehr, but, there was no 159th Landwehr Infantry Regiment. IF he is not Reserve Ersatz, he would more likely be Landsturm, very early war, say 1914. The lack of collar dogs leads me to think this. What years were the 349th & 382nd Regiments formed by Reserve Ersatz troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 There was a definte connection between IR 159 and Ers. Btl. 82. Not sure if you all are saying that or asking it, sorry if I'm stating the obvious. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliecoyote Posted 12 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2008 OK, I am chomping at the bit! Joe must know what it is, I do not. What is the connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 OK, I am chomping at the bit! Joe must know what it is, I do not. What is the connection? Oops, there is no connection...sorry for that. I was reading Ers. Btl. 28, which made perfect sence with IR 159, vice 82. I was just seeing what my brain said made sense. Brig.-Ers.-Btl. 82 is associated with IR 171. So, sorry, I don't see the connection. I know we went through this with the parade photo, but George, are you sure the shoulder boards read 159? I can't see it in the photos. I'm taking it that's what your basing the connection on and also the connection to the group photo...because Ers.-Btl. 82 and IR 159 just don't add up. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 correction, my post 36 : I meant Landsturm instead of Landwehr post 38 : regiments numbered between 383 and 480 were formed in 1916 Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 In each Army Corps District series of Landsturm infantry battalions were formed. Among them a certain number of Landsturm Infantry Ersatz Battalions. These units serve as depot battalions, there is 1 Landsturm depot (Ersatz) battalion for every 4 Landsturm infantry battalions. To these depot battalions were sent all untrained Landturm men and those unfit for service at the front. When they are considered fit for more active work, they are drafted to Landsturm infantry battalions. Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 I have the idea that Ersatz, Landwehr and Landsturm are getting mixted up here ( also my error) Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 Landsturm regiments created during the war : regiment 'Lorrach' , no number rgts 1 to 3 rgts 7 to 11, 13, 17,1 9, 20, 22 to 27 31 to 48, 50, 109, 115, 601, 602, 606, 607, 611 to 614 3 Bavarian Landsturm regts ,numbered 1 to 3 Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 Belgium - Landsturm Battalion Trier Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 Kal ROEMIGK born Duesseldorf 8/2/1879 Ersatz Batallion Landwehr Infantry Rgt 55 then Rekrueten Depot 2 Landwehr Infantry Rgt 15, 9th Kompagnie Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 Landwehr Infantry Rgt nr.25 Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 unit seal L.I.R. 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 Landwehr cross for cap and kraetchen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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