Landwehr Rekrut-Depots

[wyliecoyote]

Here's something that always intrigued me, I hope some one can explain this one for me. The Imperial German Landwehr were soldiers no longer on aktiv or aktiv reserve duty, ages 27 - 39 years of age.

So why have Landwehr Rekrut-Depots for men who are already trained? Were they for getting the Ban II men 32 - 39 back to snuff after not having any training requirements post Ban I?

[bob lembke]

Here's something that always intrigued me, I hope some one can explain this one for me. The Imperial German Landwehr were soldiers no longer on aktiv or aktiv reserve duty, ages 27 - 39 years of age.

So why have Landwehr Rekrut-Depots for men who are already trained? Were they for getting the Ban II men 32 - 39 back to snuff after not having any training requirements post Ban I?

Rekrut=Depot were not only for training, the men were also sort of warehoused there, perhaps fitted out, etc. Additionally, after leaving the Reserve the Landwehrmann really had very little training. Also, I bet that there were route-marches, etc. for conditioning.

Bob Lembke

[wyliecoyote]

Hi Bob

I would think that they would "warehouse" men in the Ersatz Btns.

[wyliecoyote]

I looked at this question from another angle: Ersatz Reservists.

Ersatz Reservists were entered into the Ersatz Reserve for a period of 12 years. They were trained in administrative, not armed, duties three times during a 12 year time period. After 12 years, if they had completed their training, members of the battalions went to the second ban of the Landwehr.

Could these Landwehr Rekruten-Depots have been set up to train these Ersatz Reservists?

[joerookery]

George the Landwehr recruit depots were part of the Landwehr ersatz battalions. Even returning wounded who had been in combat went through the ersatz battalion in some form.

Could these Landwehr Rekruten-Depots have been set up to train these Ersatz Reservists?

The ersatz reservists filled up units. yes there were some units made out of entirely ersatz reservist of most of those Ersatz reservists had little or no training. Apparently prewar excuses to miss training were rampant. Most of the ersatz reservists had been used as fillers before the first class was called up during the war. The Landwehr recruit Depot was present the entire time, supervised by the Bezirkskommando as well as the Landwehr regiment. The original recruit depots were geographically based in Germany.

. After 12 years, if they had completed their training, the class went to the second ban of the Landwehr. If the training had not been completed, they went to the first ban of the Landsturm. There were really small battalions made up of these guys at mobilization. They were built around brigade headquarters. Initially there were over 90. One of Schlieffen's pet ideas was to use these battalions as maneuver units. These units had absolutely no service support establishment. They were purely men with rifles and had few officers. No supply, medical or other essential support elements. The purpose of an ersatz battalion was to give replacements to their regiments. If an ersatz battalion became a maneuver unit it could not perform this function. Nonetheless, they were needed by 1914, and eventually you got Ersatz divisions. Initially these were used close to the German frontier border.

This system stayed in place only until the beginning of 1915. Up until that time recruits moved directly from their regimental depot to the units at the front. A new organization known as a field recruit depot (Feld Rekruten Depot) became an advanced replacement center at the front. After one to three months training at home in the Ersatz Battalion, recruits were sent to the field recruit depot where their training was completed. From there they were sent to the front. Wounded soldiers returning to the front would also pass through the field recruit depot to learn the latest techniques.

[wyliecoyote]

Hello Joe!

I always understood that in the regular Armee at least, one went from the Rekrut-Depot to the Ersatz Btn., then from the Ersatz Btn. to the Regt. I imagine it was the same in the Landwehr too.

From the point of view of the American military system, you are only a recruit one time, when you enter military service and receive your basic training. If you move on to the Guard or Reserve, you do not go back to being a recruit, as you already received basic training. This is where I am confused with the Landwehr. I can understand these men receiving additional training at an Ersatz Btn.

What Landwehrmen went to the Rekrut-Depots? They were already rekruten when they started their military service in the Regular Armee. Did they go upon entering Ban I or Ban II of the Landwehr?

[bob lembke]

Wylie;

I do not have the detailed knowledge of the German military regulations that Joe has and which I have long envied. However, I have studied about 30 Militaer=Paesse very carefully, and, to me, they indicate a great deal of complexity in practice, I fortunately have my father's Pass, and in his case, where I know the personal history fairly well, from oral history, letters, and some unit documents that he preserved, I can both see that some things were not recorded, yet the recorded unit history was quite complex. Evidentally he made at least about 11 transfers from one unit to another. A lot of these were due to putting him in appropriate units while he was convalecing from his two worst wounds, but I also suspect that the fact that he shot and killed one company commander, shot a sergeant in the butt, and kicked a second sergeant in the face with his hob-nails in a fashion that got the sergeant disciplined may have made him someone who some commanders might want to move off to another unit.

In general, from studying these documents, many men moved between quite a number of units, and while it is apparent how there was quite an effort to have the soldier in a unit appropriate to his condition and the army's needs, I don't recognize absolute regularity in their pertibations between units.

It was mentioned that it was easy to get out of active active duty (to coin a phrase); Joe wrote: "Apparently pre-war excuses to miss training were rampant." Joe, did you mean that men who did not serve in an active unit for one reason or another also often got out of any training, or just that many men did not serve in an active unit, and thusly missed the extensive training of the active army? I understand that the German population pool was large in 1914 that only about half of the men who nominally were liable to be called up were ctually needed in the active army, so one could imagine that many men who were fit enough for active service were, pre-war, not called up, just due to the balance of numbers and need.

Nothing was ever simple in the Imperial Army. Despite some apparent excessive complexity, it was, IMHO, quite a remarkable organization.

Bob Lembke

[wyliecoyote]

Bob

I believe Joe was saying that pre-war it was fairly easy for anybody in general to side-step military service. On Col. J's excellant website there is an article regarding Dienstplicht, I am not sure of the title off the top of my head, but he has a breakdown of all required for service, and I believe that less than 50% made the Musterung.

First off, there were not enough slots / billets to accomodate all who were eligible for active service. Then there were the men who were deemed unfit for legal reasons, family emergancies, physical reasons.

If one considers the amount of men that were called up into the Landsturm, something like 1 million men in August of 1914 alone, many untrained non-prior service types, you can get a picture going of how many did not do their active duty prior to 1914.

[joerookery]

Thank you very much for the complement George but I have been meaning to rewrite that article for a while. First of the recruit depots: the entire Landwehr ersatz battalion concept was a post mobilization thing. it was a tool to funnel recruits and other personnel into the units. What Bob do so successfully describing is the mass confusion which could take place if one ersatz battalion was full. You could be assigned to a different regiment a different ersatz battalion, even in a different Army Corps area.

While the article shows numbers and excuses, that early article. falls into the same traps as many of the secondary sources especially those in the English language. I have actually finished writing most of that part of the tome. from a prewar perspective low road to the military started in something called Musterung. Everyone in the "class" attended this ritual and physical examination. The key concept that is not in that article nor in any English-language secondary source that I am aware of, is the concept of Restanten. Individuals had multiple swings at entering into the military. If you did not go in this year you would be back again. There was a huge overage of the number of people going into Musterung vice the requirement. So giving someone an excuse or a pass really would not affect the bottom-line. This changed dramatically during the war and people who had failed the inspection were actually re-examined. here is an example of the numbers albeit very difficult to read as it comes from a table in Microsoft Word.

Total going to Musterung Posted to Landsturm Ban I Posted to Ersatz Reserve Dienstflicht Total incl. Volunteers, Navy, and rejections Restanten for next year

1911

20 yr olds 563,024 16,680 6,141 106,249 565,520 705,864

21 yr olds 367,688 13,925 4,817 53,185

22 yr olds 289,098 102,821 77,486 62,510

Older and younger 51,574 8,881 3,699 1,981

Total 1,271,384 142,307 92,143 223,925

what this table shows is that in 1911 there were 563,000 people from the class -- of which 106,000 actually went into the military. The Army total of 223,000 included people who were older than the class. You had to come back several times as a Restanten to get another look. You'll notice that the largest amount of Ersatz reservists came from the 22 year olds who were on their last look. Did I confuse everyone? I finally figured it out but I'm not sure I explain it well.

[Paul Hederer]

Hello George,

I'm curious, where did you see the term "Landwehr-Rekrutendepot"? I've never seen that exact phrase before.

As described above recruits would pass through the Rekrutendepot and then on the appropriate Ersatzbataillon. It was possible to have a Rekrut der Landwehr, that's for sure, but I've not seen the phrase you're asking about before.

Paul

[wyliecoyote]

Paul

This particular postcard renewed my curiosity, I have more and will add scans within the next day or so. Here is a Soldaten Brief stempel that is a little difficult to read from the scan, but it reads "Rekr. Depot L.I.R. 61. Dated 23 Oktober 1914, Graudenz 3. Graudenz 3 = Graudenz (Lager) 3?

Geo

[wyliecoyote]

The next is from Coblenz, location of I.R. 65, and that Regts. Rekrut-Depot. The photo is of the man identified here: Abt. Ers.(?) Rek. Hub.(bert?) Zimmermann L.I.R. 65 Coblenz, -?- II. Rekruten-Depot 17. Oddly enough his shoulderboards identify him as L.I.R. 68, Trier, not far from Koblenz.

The cancellation was 8 March 15 Coblenz. I also have another pk cancelled in Coblenz 12 Dec 16 from a man in Landerwehr Ers. Batl. Inf. Rgt. 68. Why would a Trier Regt. have their Ersatz Btn. in Coblenz?

The next one is from a pk group with the sign "Kreigs-Jahr (War Year) 1915 EL84 Schleswig (Ersatz Batl. L.I.R.84). This reverse reads " In Remembrance of my Recruit time 1915.

I have a few more coming up shortly.

[Cnock]

HI,

It is not Abt. Ers...but Abs (Absender)

Cnock

[wyliecoyote]

Thanks for the heads up Cnock!

This one says Ers.Batl. Landw. Inf. Reg. 27 Rek.Dep. Cancelled 1 Mar 15 Coln(?) Nippes

Ersatz Batl. L.I.R. 18 Rekruten Depot, cancelled Culm, 28 Feb 15

Ers. Batl. L.I.R.5, II Rek.Dep., Graudenz, 17 Jun 15.

[pratt]

LIR 68:

Friedhelm

[wyliecoyote]

LIR 68:

Friedhelm

Friedhelm, Vielen Dank!

The L.I.R. question has an answer! What source is that from? The only reference I have at this time is

"Formationsgeschichte der deutschen Infanterie im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914-1918" by Hartwig Busche

Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 68

Â

Aufgestellt in Trier (R.Stb., I., II., III.)

Unterstellung: Festungsbesatzung Metz, 31. L.Brig.

Kommandeur: Oberstleutnant Alefeld (I.R.Nr. 65)

I.: Major Barth (I.R.Nr. 69)

II.: Oberstleutnant z. D. Rostock (Bez.-Kdr. I

Trier) gef.: 7.9.14

III.: Major Weigel (I.R.Nr. 29)

Verluste: 15 Offz., ca. 300 Uffz. und Mannschaften.

I have never been to Trier, but I have been to Koblenz, a very beautiful region, the Fortress commands a perfect view of the Rhein & Moselle intersection. I appreciate the info, thanks again!

[wyliecoyote]

Hello George,

I'm curious, where did you see the term "Landwehr-Rekrutendepot"? I've never seen that exact phrase before.

As described above recruits would pass through the Rekrutendepot and then on the appropriate Ersatzbataillon. It was possible to have a Rekrut der Landwehr, that's for sure, but I've not seen the phrase you're asking about before.

Paul

Paul

I suppose the term is perhaps my own for lack of a better more accurate one, I am after all an Ami!

So, getting back to my original question: Who went to a Rekruten-Depot der Landwehr Regiment?

[Paul Hederer]

Paul

I suppose the term is perhaps my own for lack of a better more accurate one, I am after all an Ami!

So, getting back to my original question: Who went to a Rekruten-Depot der Landwehr Regiment?

George,

I'm an Ami too, so no alabis there, I'm afraid.

You would start at the Rekruten-Depot. From there you would be channelled to the appropriate Ersatzbataillonen. The Landwehr units had there own Ersatzbataillon (III). Landwehr men coming into service and being prepared for the front would be given some type of refresher training for sure, as someone mentioned in an earlier post.

Paul

[joerookery]

Each ersatz battalion normally had three or four ersatz companies, a convalescent company, a company of men fit only for garrison duty, and one or two recruit depots (Rekruten Depots). Untrained recruits were initially sent to the recruit depot. After a preliminary course they are moved into an Ersatz Company regularly of 100 to 200 men.

This is a general guide -- there are many exceptions.

[wyliecoyote]

George,

I'm an Ami too, so no alabis there, I'm afraid.

lol, you got me there!

It still sends sparks out of my ears that prior active duty Landwehr men would go back to Rekruten-Depot, I'll have to get used to that concept.

Great info as always Joe!

Each ersatz battalion normally had three or four ersatz companies, a convalescent company, a company of men fit only for garrison duty, and one or two recruit depots (Rekruten Depots). Untrained recruits were initially sent to the recruit depot. After a preliminary course they are moved into an Ersatz Company regularly of 100 to 200 men.

Again, this is what has me going, Landwehr men all started out in the Regular Army, went to the Reserves when their aktiv commitment was completed, then entered the Landwehr at 27. They were already trained, so why a Rekruten-Depot der Landwehr?

[joerookery]

They were already trained

Sort of.

These guys had not had any refresher training for a while. The requirement for Landwehr Ubung was not very comprehensive. Think of it this way, someone who had been trained on an older rifle needed to get a refresher on the new model. It gets a little bit more complex when you start comparing technical versus tactical training of Landwehr soldiers and the responsibility of the Army Corps area.

Don't fall into the trap that all soldiers in a Landwehr regiment came from the Landwehr. Recruits came from all different sources so it would be normal for someone in Landsturm ban one for instance to enter a Landwehr Regiment. especially as the war progressed distinctions between active, reserve, Landwehr, and Landsturm blurred quite a bit. The soldier in a Landwehr recruit Depot could easily be someone who had failed his physical at the Musterung years ago and was reinspected and sent to the front -- totally untrained.

[Paul Hederer]

George,

I don't think it's too much of a stretch thinking of members of the Landwehr having some training before heading to the front. Joe's example is a good one (there was a lot of reclassification done as the war progressed), and I can also imagine an awful lot of others. You have to think that these could be men who had had very little training in the past years. There could be the physical aspect--too much cake and coffee on Sundays for a long period of time before being called up. There would also be the change in war conditions and even weapons in use.

If I were a Landwehrmann I would be trying to get any training I could before I headed to the front.

I'm not sure the term Rekruten-Depot der Landwehr is correct. As Joe said there was a lot of "flexibility," in the system, but I think generally a Rekruten-Depot fed the respective Ersatzbataillonen associated with different regiments. Men so you would start at the Rekruten-Depot and then you would go to the Ersatzbataillon associated with the Landwehr.

Paul

[Paul Hederer]

Here is a very good passage. It's been tickling the back of my mind for days that I had something on this somewhere. I can't even give you a source, but it looks like something I copied from the internet and slapped in a word file (my bold markings):

While the general workings of the system did not change greaatly after 1914, many of the particulars did. Upon mobilization in August 1914, Ersatzreservisten were recalled to fill out the active regiments and battalions, while Reserve and Landwehr regiments and battalions were likewise being activated. Those managing the call up process tried to ensure that, as units moved out of home station according to the mobilization schedule, they were as complete as possible. Personnel from Reserve regiments were often used to fill the active regiment as it marched off, replacing unfit or no-show Ersatzreservisten. Likewise Landwehrmänner were moved up to fill the holes in the Reserve units. The Landwehr units, last to depart the garrisons, were often not fully manned. As the various units departed, they were replaced by corresponding cadre organizations; from the Corps commander down, reservists filled the slots vacated as units departed for the front. At the unit level, Replacement Battalions (Ersatzbataillone) for each of the units components one each for the active, Reserve and Landwehr components stood up in its parents place. Through these units, the field unit would receive its flow of trained replacements. After the Army moved off to war, all replacement personnel, based on their category, were directed into the appropriate replacement battalion after passing through the Rekrutendepot.

Little has been written about the Ersatzbataillone; while the literature invariably mentions their existence, it seldom offers organizational detail. The I. Ersatzbataillon served the active unit, the II. Ersatzbataillon served the units Reserve counterpart, and the III. Ersatzbataillon handled Landwehr regiment or battalion. Given the German system, there was surely much flexibility in organizations, but battalions had at least two confirmed companies the Rekrutenkompagnie (sometimes also called a Stammkompagnie) and a Genesendenkompagnie. In some battalions, these companies were apparently numbered, while others used the name titles. Arriving personnel were taken in to the Recruit or Stem company, and wounded returning from the front were assigned to the Convalescent Company during their recuperation. Other companies, which seem to have borne numbers, were apparently training companies in which recruits were grouped, probably according to their arrival time, so as to have them pass through the training cycle as a unit. The period at which new personnel were taken into replacement units during the war remains something of a mystery, but it seems probable callups every month or two would have allowed the training of personnel to ensure a steady flow of replacements without overloading the system. The I. Battalion had by far the hardest task, that of turning raw civilians into front line soldiers, while Reserve and Landwehr replacement units were dealing with individuals who had been through basic training and probably served at some point and needed, at least theoretically, only refresher training.

[bob lembke]

Don't fall into the trap that all soldiers in a Landwehr regiment came from the Landwehr. Recruits came from all different sources so it would be normal for someone in Landsturm ban one for instance to enter a Landwehr Regiment. especially as the war progressed distinctions between active, reserve, Landwehr, and Landsturm blurred quite a bit. The soldier in a Landwehr recruit Depot could easily be someone who had failed his physical at the Musterung years ago and was reinspected and sent to the front -- totally untrained.

Yes. One thing that I saw frequently in my study of Militaer=Paesse, which of course track actual military careers, was a soldier in an active unit being wounded, being in a hospital for a stay, then possibly a stay in a convalecent company, and then a period in a Landwehr regiment, although he might only be 21 or 22. A while later he might or might not return to his old or another active line regiment. Clearly when he was in the Landwehr he was not fit enough to serve in a line unit, perhaps he had a limp or otherwise could not keep up on a march with fit 22 year olds, and perhaps after a while he improved and went back to a line regiment.

In one Pass the soldier was young and in a Guards regiment, after a month or two in the invasion of France and several battles it was found to have heart disease and spent time in hospital, and when he came out he was poster to a Landsturm unit. Clearly he was not fit enough for route marches in a Guards unit, but was fit enough to guard a bridge along with 40 year old men.

In another Pass a soldier was severely wounded, recovered somewhat in hospital, but was discharged from the hospital but kept in the army and sent back to Germany to work in a defense plant. Say 18 months later, after other physicals, he was discharged from the army but ordered to report for a medical exam every six months to see if he was fit enough to be taken into the army again.

A lot of diverse career paths, but clearly a lot of effort to have the soldier serve in the best and most useful enviroment for his particular physical condition at that particular moment.

Bob Lembke

[wyliecoyote]

Gentlemen

Now this thread has been a positive learning experience! The picture, for me at least is becomming clearer. Thank you all for your input. I was hung up on that recruit aspect, it is apparent tthat the Greman use of that time of Rekrut is both the same and different from the US concept of the word. I can see that it was not used strictly for a raw untrained personnel, but also for some one new to a particular unit.

Once again, Joe, Paul, Bob, Friedhelm, thanks for the info! If there is more to come, I will look forward to further enlightenment. This is why The Great War Forum is so Great!

Geo