Motor Vehicles in World War I

[Pete1052]

Click here to see how maintenance and repair of vehicles could be a problem.

[sjustice]

Thanks for the replies all.

I am wondering why the majority of units continued to use horses as their primary means of transportation....

Motor Transport (MT) was always brilliant...as long is the destination was a alongside, or at the end of, a road or decent track without bloody great holes in it.

Unfortunately, that was approximately 0.42% of occasions.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Ron Clifton]

Simon has identified precisely why a battalion CO, for instance, did not have a motor car.

MT usage during the war increased but in 1914 there were 876 horse-drawn vehicles (excluding the guns) bout only 34 cars and lorries, of which 21 were motor ambulances.

The other 13 were staff cars at Div and Bde HQs and the HQ of the divisional train. Infantry and artillery units had no motor vehicles at all.

Lines of Communication units such as supply columns and ammunition parks, as well as the RFC squadrons, had motor vehicles.

There was pressure on all forms of industry to prioritise material, particularly steel, in production for military purposes. Horses and carts, on the other hand, were relatively plentiful. Good roads in the forward areas, suitable for mechanical transport, were relatively scarce. Transporting newly-made motor vehicles to France, especially from North America, would also have taken up valuable freight space.

Equipping a WW1 army with full MT was simply not feasible. Indeed, the German Army of 1939 was still largely horse-drawn.

Ron

[Ally Sloper]

During the First World War Dennis Brothers of Guildford, Surrey supplied over 7,000 lorries to the army, as many as 30 being produced in a week.

If anyone is interested Surrey History Centre at Woking hold various photographs, construction plans and a handbook for the '3 ton War Office Subvention Vehicle'.

Dennis Brothers also seem to have built ambulances because in the programme the 'Last Tommy' Jim Lovell mentions a 'little Dennis' ambulance taking him back to the front line, instead of a day trip to the seaside where he was told he was going.

[Ghost]

No steam men required even then. This advert appeared in the local advertiser for weeks prior to Feb 1915.

Recruiting Advert for Drivers, Mechanics ASC

Alan

[MartinWills]

The ramp up with motor vehicles started very quickly with buses produced under the subsidy scheme - eg 75 to support the actions at Antwerp - and hundreds to follow. Clearly there was planning prior to the war to ensure use of these resources.

[Great War Truck]

A lot of the problem was down to basic economics and the law of supply and demand. In the peacetime economy there was limited demand and therefore low supply. With the events of 1914, the demand went through the roof and supply could not keep up. If you take FWD for example (and with figures off the top of my head), in the previous 12 Months they had made 11 trucks. After they sent two to England for testing by the War Office, they had an immediate order for 200, with 200 more per Month following. The 20 or so company employees had a big job on their hands ("overtime tonight then lads").

Following numerous trials, the War Office were well aware of the value of MT, but just did not have the financial resources to meet the need. They devised the "provisional subsidy scheme for motor lorries" in 1911 and set such rigorous requirements for vehicles to enter the scheme that even with the subsidy they were more expensive than many other types of lorry on the market. With the risk of having your lorry taken away at a time of conflict it is no wonder that not many trucks were signed up under the scheme. The scheme is regularly described as a failure, which is no fault of the designers, it is just the fault of the money men who would sign the cheques. It made the whole project unattractive.

I have forgotten what your original question was now, but this is an interesting topic.

Tim (too)

[Ghost]

One point about horses being "relatively plentiful". This was not deemed to be the case.

"For some years there has been a shortage of horses for the army, a state of affairs largely due to the fact that over 300,000 horses were lost in the South African War, and also because breeding has lessened so considerably since the general introduction of mechanical traffic on to the streets."

Alan

[manchester terrier]

Martin,

Mass production of vehicles only came about because of WW1, As for the Model B Truck the UK purchased 18,000 during the course of the war the first contract placed in 1914 the first deliveries early 1915. The FWD version was mainly used as a gun tractor.

There in large numbers though not enough by far.

Hope that helps

Regards Charles

They would've struggled buying Model B trucks in 1914, Ford only started making them in 1932!

cheers

baz

[Great War Truck]

They would've struggled buying Model B trucks in 1914, Ford only started making them in 1932!

cheers

baz

He is referring to the Model B built by the Clintonville based Company of FWD that was bought in great numbers from 1914.

Tim

[manchester terrier]

cheers tim i stand corrected!

whats the difference between the model B and the FWD?

baz

[Great War Truck]

FWD stands for the "Four Wheel Drive Automobile Company" of Clintonville Wisconsin. They commercially developed the first four wheel drive car (about 1911 - off the top of my head) and when that failed to take off they developed a four wheel drive truck which they called the Model A. They didnt sell a lot of these and made a 3 ton truck which they imagenetively called the Model B. On the verge of bankruptcy when the WD ordered 200 of these in 1914 and then went on to order thousands of them. So FWD is the name of the Company and Model B is there most famous truck. The Model B was also built under licence by several other companies in the USA.

Tim (too)

[manchester terrier]

cheers Tim, i'd heard of the FWD trucks but was unaware there were different models. Weren't a lot of these trucks reconditioned post war and sold in the UK? Seem to recall something about a London FWD lorry company.

cheers

baz

[Great War Truck]

Yes, quite right. They almost all came back to the UK where they were disposed of. However most of them ended up in Slough where they were reconditioned and sold off as almost new. Most of the UK survivors are ex Slough, although a couple that i know of were built post war using some original bits, but new chassis, and quite sensibly hard cabs. The history of FWD is very interesting and i will get round to writing an article on the subject for Military Machines International soon.

Tim (too)

[manchester terrier]

cheers Tim, i'll keep a look out for it

baz

[bushfighter]

MartinS

If you haven't already seen them then get a 50-cigarette card set of "Military Motors" issued by W.D & H.O. Wills in 1916.

Today a set of originals are catalogued at 80 pounds or more, but you can buy a set of reproductions for a few pounds.

If you don't have a collector's shop nearby then contact: info@barringtonsmith.co.uk

You will get a lot of fun just looking through them

Harry

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I seriously doubt that British Ordnance and industry had mass-production and quality manufacturing all figured out during the Napoleonic wars. "On June 17th [1806]

It was a case of necessity! As previously mentioned the impetus came with the Continental System (which is usually dated to November 1806) and the exclusion of British trade with Europe. When Britain was called upon to provide arms for her allies over the next 9 years she produced millions of muskets, balls and tons of gunpowder. That required mass production! John Martin Sherwig gave some analysis of this in Guineas and Gunpowder. British foreign aid in the wars with France, 1793-1815.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Equipping a WW1 army with full MT was simply not feasible. Indeed, the German Army of 1939 was still largely horse-drawn.

The German Army of 1941 was still reliant on horses, which contributed to their problems in the Russian campaign.

In 1939 the British had the only mechanised army.

[phil@basildon]

It might interest you to know that the AEC produced more lorries than any other single British manufacturer. They produced over 8,000 "Y" type 3 tonners and production did not commence until 1916! AEC had the first and only moving production line making heavy goods vehicles at the time.

[Muskoka]

I thought you might find this website interesting http://www.oldwoodies.com/gallery-military1.htm

[phil@basildon]

As has been said the subsidy scheme was not as successful as had been hoped. The military had to resort to commandeering vehicles such as LGOC "B" type buses, not because they were suitable but because there were so many of them.

The first few months of the war was one of movement were mechanised transport came into its own but once trench warfare came in it was a different story.

Throughout the war there was a considerable shortage of horses which in some ways speeded up mechanisation and led to the British army being the most mechanised in the world in 1939.

If anyone wants further information there is two other forums on this website "Rolls-Royce armoured cars" and "London buses".

[CULVERIN]

Post 32 here by Great War Truck is the most valid post here, raising the issue of the provisional subsidy scheme.

By 1914 it had gained momentum and the criteria for the subsidies was frankly rather irksome. However, the powers that be had laid down very strict rules governing such payments, and they make for interesting reading.

I shall dig out some figures i have for the months prior to the wars commencement, it will take a few weeks. Fascinating all the same.

By 1914 it was acknowledged there was a severe shortage of horses in the UK, the infernal combustion engine had taken a hold by now.

The remark that drivers had to double de clutch, post 12, is ridiculous. There was no synchromesh, it was simply the accepted procedure.

How then did people adapt from riding their mare to driving a motor vehicle let alone flying a lighter than air machine.

Simply adapt, like i have now with windows 8 and touch screen.

[centurion]

Post 32 here by Great War Truck is the most valid post here, raising the issue of the provisional subsidy scheme.

By 1914 it had gained momentum and the criteria for the subsidies was frankly rather irksome. However, the powers that be had laid down very strict rules governing such payments, and they make for interesting reading.

I shall dig out some figures i have for the months prior to the wars commencement, it will take a few weeks. Fascinating all the same.

By 1914 it was acknowledged there was a severe shortage of horses in the UK, the infernal combustion engine had taken a hold by now.

The remark that drivers had to double de clutch, post 12, is ridiculous. There was no synchromesh, it was simply the accepted procedure.

How then did people adapt from riding their mare to driving a motor vehicle let alone flying a lighter than air machine.

Simply adapt, like i have now with windows 8 and touch screen.

What do you mean by valid? Are you saying that you can say which posts are valid? ALL posts are valid (provided they do not break forum rules), some may be more of less accurate, informed or relevant than others

[David Filsell]

I think you will find that B type buses were so called because the were purchased under the subsidy B scheme. As such they were not commandeered, but given up th the army under ageed B subsidy requirements

[Terry_Reeves]

Just out of interest, I have several lists of vehicles, i.e. cars, lorries and motorcycles, including types and registrations, by unit, that were listed as stolen by a special investigation unit, sponsored by the Ministry of Munitions and run by an army officer. The French police cooperated in the recovery of these vehicles, all of which appear to have landed in French civilian hands. Most of the thefts took place in 1918/1919. I should say that the British officer In charge was something of scoundrel himself and despite being investigated by the Military police, had the knack of scraping out of trouble for the whole of his military career. It is an interesting story.

TR