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5th Horseman

Der Weltkrieg 1914-1918 Band 13 und 14

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5th Horseman

Do Volumes 13 and 14 of the Official German History of the Great War exist?

I have found dozens of copies of volumes 1 through 12. I cannot, however find 13 and 14 which would cover 1917 onward.

Anyone know where they might be found?

I've even tried the Library of Congress and Universities in America.

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Aaron Pegram

I know the Australian War Memorial has a set on their stacks. They might be of interest if you're local.

Aaron

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Paul Hederer
Do Volumes 13 and 14 of the Official German History of the Great War exist?

I have found dozens of copies of volumes 1 through 12. I cannot, however find 13 and 14 which would cover 1917 onward.

Anyone know where they might be found?

I've even tried the Library of Congress and Universities in America.

Yes, they do exist. A complete set (including volumes 13 and 14) of "Der Weltkrieg," was sold on e-bay just a few weeks ago.

I think you may have missed something in your search ;)

The University Library at Brigham Young (Provo, Utah) has all volumes, for example.

Also from the library of Congress website:

LC Control No.: 25009688

LCCN Permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/25009688

Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)

Contents: [1] Die militärischen Operationen zu Lande. 1. Bd. Die Grenzschlachten im Westen 1925. 2. Bd. Die Befreiung Ostpreussens. 1925. 3. Bd. Der Marne-Feldzug; von der Sambre zur Marne. 1926. 4. Bd. Der Marne-Feldzug: die Schlacht. 1926. 5. Bd. Der Herbst-Feldzug ; im Westen bis zum Stellungskrieg, im Osten bis zum Rückzug. 1929. 6. Bd. Der Herbst-Feldzug; der Abschluss der Operationen im Westen und Osten. 1929. 7. Bd. Die Operationen des Jahres 1915; die Ereignisse im Winter und Frühjahr. 1931. 8. Bd. Die Operationen des Jahres 1915; die Ereignisse im Westen im Frühjahr und Sommer, im Osten vom Frühjahr bis zum Jahresschluss. 1932. 9. Bd. Die Operationen des Jahres 1915; dieEreignisse im Westen und auf dem Balkan von Sommer bis zum Jahresschluss. 1933. 10. Bd. Die Operationen des Jahres 1916 bis zum Wechsel in der obersten Heeresleitung. 1936. 11. Bd. Die Kriegführung im Herbst 1916 und im Winter 1916/17; vom Wechsel in der obersten Heeresleitung bis zum Entschluss zum Rückzug in die Siegfried-Stellung. 1938. 12. Bd. Die Kriegführung im Frühjahr 1917. 1939. 13. Bd. Die Kriegführung in Sommer und Herbst 1917, die Ereignisse ausserhalb der Westfront bis November 1918. 1942. 14. Bd. Die Kriegführung an der Westfront im Jahre 1918. 1944. [i.e. 1956] Beilagen. 1944. [2] Die militärischen Operationen zu Lande: Das deutsche Feldeisenbahnwesen. 1. Bd. Die Eisenbahnen zu Kriegsbeginn. 1928. [3] Kriegssrüstung und Kriegswirtschaft. 1. Bd. Die militärische, wirtschaftliche und finanzielle Rüstung Deutschlands von der Reichsgründung bis zum Ausbruch des Weitkrieges. 1930. Anlagen. 1930.

Paul

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5th Horseman

Well, Australia is the other side of the world, so that doesn't work.

Paul, I searched for about two hours last night. Please, don't tell me you found that in five minutes.

Thanks for the titles, though. Now I can refine my search. I just wonder why volumes 1 through 12 are readily available and the ones I need I can't find?

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Ken S.

The local university has volumes 13 and 14. If there's something specific you're interested in, I'm willing to take a look.

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Paul Hederer
Well, Australia is the other side of the world, so that doesn't work.

Paul, I searched for about two hours last night. Please, don't tell me you found that in five minutes.

Thanks for the titles, though. Now I can refine my search. I just wonder why volumes 1 through 12 are readily available and the ones I need I can't find?

Good Morning,

I'm not sure why you didn't find them. Maybe your search term just didn't hit what you needed. I entered "Der Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918" on the LOC search site.

I didn't know you are in Australia or I would have looked there for you. I tried the library of congress as you mentioned it, so I assumed you were in the States. A small suggestion would be to enter your location in your member data, that helps a lot when forum Pals are helping with research. But, I think you'll find your volumes where you are with no problem.

Volumes 13 and 14 were published during the Second World War originally. Some were destroyed, and the original run was small. They were published again in the 50's. They are considered to be of a lesser value than the other volumes due to the influence of the political system of the times. I've noticed many institutions don't seem to have bought these later volumes. Maybe at the time focus was shifting away to the Second World War study and there was feeling that there no was no need to complete the set concerning the older conflict.

Paul

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Aaron Pegram
Well, Australia is the other side of the world, so that doesn't work.

It might then help if you tell us where you're located.

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5th Horseman

Right, sorry about the location thingy.

I live in America. Very near New York city, to be more precise. So I searched the N Y Public Library, which is huge, but no dice, the universities nearby couldn't help either. I see NOW the darn things ARE in the Library of Congress (thanks to Paul). They have a copy service, but, I'm not sure if what I am exactly looking for is actually in the books, and the service is not cheap. The funny thing is a book finder search turns up dozens of relatively cheap volumes 1 through 12. The things are everywhere, but not one single 13 or 14.

So, here's the deal, as I stated on another forum here (which is now obvious I should have restated here), I'm specifically looking for the German Order of Battle. To be more specific, from division to corps to army for the approximate date of March 21, 1918. I have the Belgian, Commonwealth, French and American OOBs nailed down.

Sounds easy right? The Germans are known for magnificently meticulous records. Well, I can't find them. I have found all sorts of clues. I know which armies are where, which corps are where, even which divisions are where (to a certain extent). What I do not know is the command structure between divisions and corps/armies. Which divisions are attached to which corps? Which divisions are just hanging around in reserve status to armies or army groups or OKH? It is a maddeningly minor detail that I thought would be a mere walk in the park.

TO Ken S., Sir, I would name my next child after you if you could tell me if there is any OOB info which would clarify my problem. I've never seen the volumes and all I'm working on is a cryptic post to search those two particular volumes.

P.S. If it's a girl I would hope you would release me from the prior promise!

Thanks to all, Scott

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Jack Sheldon

I assume that you are after the ORBAT for 18th Army that day. If so, it could not be easier. Get hold of a copy of the reference work by Hermann Cron - either in its original German, Geschichte des Deutschen Heeres 1914-1918 , Berlin 1937 or in English translation Imperial German Army 1914-18 Organisation, Structure, Orders-of Battle, published in England by Helion & Company 2002 ISBN 1 874622 70 1 Appendix 2 provides an ORBAT down to the last mobile Field Butchery Section and Carrier Pigeon Unit for 21 Mar 1918.

Jack

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5th Horseman

Jack,

I have German 18th, 2nd and 17th. Those Orbats are pretty easy to find. I need the rest of the German line, from the Channel to Switzerland.

It's the rest of those pesky German armies which are a pain in the butt. I must say, I am surprised they aren't more readily acquired.

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Ken S.

I had a look at Volume 14, and, no, there is no Order-of-Battle covering the entire front.

Volume 14 has a fair number of maps and charts which are included in a seperate case. Of these, the most relevant that I could find were Beilage 34 and Beilage 36a.

Beilage 34 is entitled "Ubersicht der Generalkommandos und Divisionen: 21. Marz 1918" and lists Army and Reserve Corps (with commanders) and divisions (with regiments) in numerical order and not by location.

Beilage 36a is entitled "Gliederung des Westheeres" and it simply lists the major army groups, the number of divisions in each, and commanding officers of the respective army group.

Ken

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5th Horseman

Ken,

Can't thank you enough. I appreciate the field trip and hope it didn't cost you too much time.

You've saved me a few dollars and a few weeks just to find out what I already knew.

As I have said before, this is a great place full of great people.

Thnaks again, Ken.

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Paul Hederer

That's odd. I would have thought that information would be in volumes 13 and 14. Ken, if I may ask did the set of maps and beilagen for the volume seem complete? Here are two examples of what I would have expected looking at the other volumes of the series:

If these are not in volume 14 (or 13 if it covers the preparations of the battle) then these volumes must indeed be of lesser quality than the rest of the set.

First shows detailed oganizational data (this is for the whole Western Front), the second is a flow chart of divisions in and out of organizations.

@Scott. You made a statement about the Germans being meticulous record takers. Welcome to the world of research for the German Army in the Great War. Most of those meticulously kept records were detroyed when the Heeresarchives were bombed by the RAF in 1945.

Paul

post-3882-1205652685.jpg

post-3882-1205652698.jpg

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5th Horseman

Paul,

I expected to find a detailed record somewhere, but I was not aware of the bombing.

Now, I have never seen a volume of Der weltkrieg, but I must say those photos are BETTER than I could have hoped for. The French simply list in the divisional history, at the end, to what corps and army a division was assigned at any one time. Which then forced me to reorganize all the data to a coherent format.

The German "spreadsheet" format is what I have been doing. They beat me to it!

I may have to consider purchasing a set of Der Weltkrieg.

I should also add, that the Library of Congress here, in the US, states that it's version of 13 and 14 are different than the first 12. And 14 is actually a microfilm copy of a document found 'elsewhere in 1956?'.

Figures... the ones I have been looking for may be different and obviously much rarer than the first 12.

Thanks, Paul.

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5th Horseman

Well,

Just purchased volumes 1-12 and ordered 13 and 14 from Library of Congress.

With all hope, my problem is solved.

Thanks guys.

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Ken S.
Ken,

Can't thank you enough. I appreciate the field trip and hope it didn't cost you too much time.

You've saved me a few dollars and a few weeks just to find out what I already knew.

As I have said before, this is a great place full of great people.

Thnaks again, Ken.

No problem. I had to go anyway, and it's just a ten minute walk.

Paul,

I don't recall anything that looked like the first image, but there is one like the second one. As for completeness, it looked complete and I don't recall seeing anything in the index that indicated there was something along the lines of the first image. Next time I go I'll check again.

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Paul Hederer
No problem. I had to go anyway, and it's just a ten minute walk.

Paul,

I don't recall anything that looked like the first image, but there is one like the second one. As for completeness, it looked complete and I don't recall seeing anything in the index that indicated there was something along the lines of the first image. Next time I go I'll check again.

Hello Ken,

No worries. I've only had a brief look at both volumes. I know they were put together during the war (Second that is) and the effort was winding down. It may be that they don't have all the bells and whistles of the other volumes.

Paul

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Paul Hederer
Well,

Just purchased volumes 1-12 and ordered 13 and 14 from Library of Congress.

With all hope, my problem is solved.

Thanks guys.

Scott,

Good luck. I hope you got a good deal on your 1-12 volume set. Let us know what you find in volumes 13 and 14.

Paul

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The Prussian

Hello!

An old thread, but stil actual...

Vol. 13 was published in 1942 in a quantity of 1500. Most of them were sold, the rest came back in stock and was destroyed by an air raid in 1945. Vol. 13 and 14 were re-published in 1956 in a quantity of 500 each.

Vol. 13 in 1942 was given to selected officers, who were not allowed to show it other persons.

The 1956 edition of Vol.13 was marked with N°9 (probably taken from the original edition). Vol.13 was published in 1942 by "Oberkommando des Heeres" and 1956 by "Bundesarchiv"

A big difference between those two edition was, that the maps of 1942 were coloured and from 1956 b/w.

Vol. 14 had b/w maps too.

I´m glad to own an original edition of vol. 13 and vol. 14 including the map-case! Additionally there also was a photo-volume with a couple of printed photographies.

The entire collection consists of:

1) Die Grenzschlachten im Westen (1925), 719 S., 3 Anlagen, 7 Karten, 10 Skizzen
2) Die Befreiung Ostpreußens (1925), 390 S., 3 Anlagen, 14 Karten, 11 Skizzen
3) Der Marne-Feldzug (Von der Sambre zur Marne) (1926), 427 S., 7 Karten, 11 Skizzen
4) Der Marne-Feldzug (Die Schlacht) (1926), 576 S., 3 Anlagen, 10 Karten, 6 Skizzen
5) Der Herbst-Feldzug 1914 (Im Westen bis zum Stellungskrieg ; Im Osten bis zum Rückzug) (1929), 643 S., 3 Anlagen, 18 Karten, 14 Skizzen
6) Der Herbst-Feldzug 1914 (Der Abschluß der Operationen im Westen und Osten) (1929), 500 S., 4 Anlagen, 7 Karten, 14 Skizzen
7) Die Operationen des Jahres 1915 (Die Ereignisse im Winter und Frühjahr) (1931), 493 S., 2 Anlagen, 17 Karten, 22 Skizzen
8 ) Die Operationen des Jahres 1915 (Die Ereignisse im Westen im Frühjahr und Sommer, im Osten vom Frühjahr bis zum Jahresschluß) (1932), 666 S., 4 Anlagen, 7 Karten, 32 Skizzen
9) Die Operationen des Jahres 1915 (Die Ereignisse im Westen und auf dem Balkan vom Sommer bis zum Jahresschluß) (193), 519 S., 7 Anlagen, 5 Karten, 29 Skizzen
10) Die Operationen des Jahres 1916 (bis zum Wechsel in der Obersten Heeresleitung) (1936), 706 S., 4 Anlagen, 7 Karten, 37 Skizzen
11) Die Kriegsführung im Herbst 1916 und im Winter 1916/1917 (Vom Wechsel in der Obersten Heeresleitung bis zum Entschluß zum Rückzug in die Siegfried-Stellung) (1938 ), 545 S., 8 Anlagen, 6 Karten, 26 Skizzen
12) Die Kriegsführung im Frühjahr 1917 (1939), 606 S., 26 Karten, 3 Skizzen
13) Die Kriegsführung im Sommer und Herbst 1917 / Die Ereignisse außerhalb der Westfront bis November 1918 (1942), 483 S., 30 Karten
14) Die Kriegführung an der Westfront im Jahre 1918 (1944), 793 S.
Kartenband zu 14) (1944), 45 Karten
Kriegsrüstung und Kriegswirtschaft (1930), 496 S.
Kriegsrüstung und Kriegswirtschaft (Anlagenband) (1930), 534 S.
Das deutsche Feldeisenbahnwesen (Die Eisenbahnen zu Kriegsbeginn) (1928 ), 247 S., 17 Anlagen, 6 Karten, 88 Skizzen
Das deutsche Feldeisenbahnwesen (Die Eisenbahnen von Oktober 1914 bis zum Kriegsende) (2010), 454 S.
Bildermappe (35 Bilder)

 

Note, that vol. 2 of the railway book was published in 2010!

Here is my complete ensemble:


 

P8280001.JPG

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MartH

Morning Prussian, A nice set. I am intrigued, do you have an original 1944 Vol. 14, or is it the 1956 copy. 

 

The Vol. 13 even though it says it's published in 1942, was published in 1943, it was " For Official Use Only" and never sold to the public.

 

You state Vol. 13 was done in a print run of 1,500, do you have a reference for that please? Interestingly the 1956 versions took a long time to sell, into the 70's till they were all gone.

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The Prussian

Hi Mart!

Thanx a lot!

No, vol.14 is 56th one. There was no original from 44 published! After the raids there were only fragments...

Well, I´ve got a few infos about those both volumes, but it would be too much work to translate it.

If you want, here we go!

The first five pages (the smaller ones) are from vol.14 and it´s about the history of that book.

The rest (N° 20-27) are from the reprint of vol. 13.

In N°20 you´ll find the quantity of 1500. The "Kriegsgeschichtliche Forschungsamt" took over 1500 books to sell, the rest came back in stock and were destroyed by the raid in 45.

They sold a bigger part of them, maybe 1000-1200... I don´t know...

1.jpg

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5.jpg

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027.jpg

Edited by The Prussian

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MartH

Prussian thanks for this I'd missed the 1,500 print run, doesn't it also say that they were marked up for "Official Purposes/Use only", so I don't think they were ever sold, they were just issued, though it says a large number were issued. Dr. G. Sandhofer in Higham on Official Histories states "A thirteenth volume appeared in a small number of copies and, at the request of the Foreign Office it was marked "for official purposes only".  They were all marked up and numbered, mine is Nr 136, whats yours? 

 

The Das deutsche Feldeisenbahnwesen (Die Eisenbahnen von Oktober 1914 bis zum Kriegsende) (2010), 454 S. has a very good narrative too about the writing of them and says Volume 13 came out in 1943 as does Higham as does the preface to Vol. 14.

 

Did you know there is a draft of the colonial warfare, and they planned one on heavy artillery.

 

If anyone else has a copy of the 1942 Edition could they post the number of their copy I would be interested to know the number, as I said the one is my possession is Nr 136, any one higher?

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The Prussian

Well, if they were sold or not, I don´t know. Probably those selected officers had to pay for them.

The number is a miracle... My book doesn´t have any number...

 

IMG_20200128_132127.jpg

IMG_20200128_132137.jpg

IMG_20200128_132152.jpg

Edited by The Prussian

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MartH

Prussian Thanks Mart.

 

No number bur marked up for "Official use Only"

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The Prussian

An original one. Maybe the number one... :D

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