melliget Posted 27 February , 2008 Share Posted 27 February , 2008 Just a general question at this point but, following on from the thread on the Australian munitions worker Arthur Sidney West, does anyone know if any of the munitions workers that died of T.N.T. poisoning (nicknamed 'canaries' because of their jaundiced skin) are commemorated on the CWGC site? From Terry's explanation that it depends on whether they "died on duty and of a war cause", the latter I expect could hardly be disputed but whether they died on duty may be a sticking point. I think a large number of them (and estimates I've come across are that around 200 munitions workers in the UK died of TNT poisoning during the Great War, though it may possibly be more) would have died in hospital after becoming ill from the disease, so technically not on duty at the time of death. I have some details of individuals which, to me, sound like cases deserving of commemoration (and I will post these in due course) but I can't find any of them on CWGC. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 February , 2008 Share Posted 27 February , 2008 Martin UK munitions workers do not qualify for CWGC commemoration. Only certain civilian organisations qualified and, unless the person was a member of one of the organised units granted such status, no commemoration can be given. It is members of those Recognised Civilian Organisations (such as the Mercantile Marine, Red Cross, VADs, YMCA etc) which can qualify if they died on duty and of a war cause. There is a specific list of such organisations. 'War cause' usually means by enemy action or due to conditions experienced during service - all while on duty. Australian munitions workers qualified if they died on duty overseas and of a war cause as they were recruited as an organised body and sent abroad as a unit rather than being individual civilian workers. A munitions worker dying at home in Australia would not qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 27 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2008 Thanks for clarifying that, Terry. I had missed that distinction in the Arthur West case. I'm not sure I understand it, however, or rather agree with it. To me it seems inconsistent that UK munitions workers have not been commemorated here in the UK whereas Australian munitions workers working beside them have, given the required criteria. From what I have read, it sounds like it was dangerous work, particularly before they understood T.N.T poisoning and its prevention and treatment, and apart from the hundreds killed I've no doubt that many more had their health ruined by the vital work they did for the war effort. The following case, the death after the war of Miss Natalie Campbell, is one example: The Times, Thursday, May 02, 1935 MISS CAMPBELL The death occurred on April 29 at the age of 51 of Miss Natalie Alice Campbell. Miss Campbell served during the War at Woolwich Arsenal; she was a supervisor in the Danger Zone building, and was one of those respon- sible for filling the shells of H.M.S. Eliza- beth. As a result of this War service Miss Camp- bell contracted T.N.T. poisoning, which affected her general health and obliged her to lead the life of an invalid. An inquest was held at St. Pancras Coroner's Court yesterday. The verdict was that death was due to T.N.T. poisoning contracted on war service, and the Coroner offered the sympathy of the Court to the relatives. The funeral will be at Golders Green Crematorium at 12.30 to-morrow. Several cases I have found of deaths during war time invariably ended in the verdict of "death by misadventure." In light of what is now known about the disease, do you think there is any prospect that the CWGC would consider a change in stance on this issue? regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 February , 2008 Share Posted 27 February , 2008 Martin No chance of a change whatsoever! The decision is not theirs in any case as it would require a change in the Royal Charter and agreement to do so by all CWGC member states. The differentiation is quite logical. CWGC only commemorates military casualties. This was extended to commemorate certain civilian units which operated under military control or alongside military units in war zones and were likely to come into contact with the enemy. Even then they did not automatically qualify as did servicemen. They have the additional qualifications of having to be on duty and of a war cause. Each dominion decided which organisations fitted this category and the Aussies decided that their munitions workers who were recruited into a 'unit' and sent overseas would qualify (but those remaining at home would not just as the UK workers). The distinction being that they were an organised body acting under instruction from authority rather than a group of individual free agents. CWGC does not commemorate WW1 civilians but the Recognised Organisations become sort of 'honorary military'! No doubt we could draw up a list of civilian organisations which, in some people's eyes, should qualify but do not. I am certain that some of the decisions at the time were borderline when deciding the 'on duty' and 'war cause' criteria. Here is a list of those civilian organisations which do qualify under the extended criteria. The list for WW2 is different and longer. UNITED KINGDOM & COLONIES Mercantile Marine Admiralty Civilian Employees Civilian Workers aboard HM Ships British Red Cross Society Order of St John of Jerusalem Voluntary Aid Detachment Young Men’s Christian Association British Ambulance Committee Friends Ambulance Unit Friends War Victims Relief Committee Scottish Women’s Hospitals Scottish Churches Huts St John’s Ambulance Brigade Church Army Trinity House Light Vessel Service Marine Pilots National Rifle Association School of Musketry French Red Cross (British Personnel) Chinese Labour Corps (British Civilian Personnel) British Military Mission (Civilian Personnel) Serbian Relief Fund Sierra Leone Civil Service Aden Railway Inspector of Prisons (Egypt) Newfoundland Merchant Navy AUSTRALIA Australian War Workers (overseas) Australian Munitions Workers (overseas) Australian Red Cross Australian Voluntary Aid Detachment CANADA Canadian Merchant Navy Canadian Dockyard Employees Canadian Young Men’s Christian Association Canadian Military Voluntary Aid Detachment INDIA Indian Merchant Service Indian Civil Service Indian Public Works Department Indo-European Telegraphic Department Burma Railways NEW ZEALAND New Zealand Voluntary Aid Detachment SOUTH AFRICA South African Voluntary Aid Detachment South African Garrison Institute (Civilian Personnel) Many of these only have one or two qualifying casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 27 February , 2008 Share Posted 27 February , 2008 Martin, is there a memorial to the war workers who died of TNT poisoning at the national arboretum at Alrewas, if not maybe that is the road you/we could go down to get the recognition for their effort and sacrafice, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 27 February , 2008 Share Posted 27 February , 2008 It sucks doesn't it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 27 February , 2008 Share Posted 27 February , 2008 It sucks doesn't it! From the CWGC website: " A second war Just as the programme was completed in 1938, it became clear that the Commission’s task was not yet over. A year later, war once again engulfed mainland Europe, forcing the Commission to evacuate its staff and leave the cemeteries. Before long, Ware realised that this second war was very different to the first – new countries and continents and the increased use of air power meant that there were going to be more casualties, and those casualties would no longer be restricted to military personnel. Extending its remit, the Commission created a roll of honour that commemorated 67,000 civilians who died as a result of enemy action during the Second World War. " What does 'Extending its remit' mean. Who decided this? Was The Royal Charter modified? Somewhere, on the website, it says that Churchill directed the Commission to record the names of civilain dead during WW2. How was this instruction set in stone? Just curious why so many casualties of WW1 were neglected in death. In perpetuity. (I seem to remember my Godmother saying she had TNT poisioning in WW2 - hair turned red) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 27 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2008 Thanks for the further explanation, Terry. I appreciate it. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 28 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2008 is there a memorial to the war workers who died of TNT poisoning at the national arboretum at Alrewas Thanks, Kevin. Not sure - I don't think so (just visited the website). I hadn't heard of this memorial before - not surprising for an interloper to these shores. I think the starting point would be to get some sort of list together, which may not be easy. I do see some relevant files in TNA catalogue. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 28 February , 2008 Share Posted 28 February , 2008 Geoff Yes - the Royal Charter was amended. Churchill got all the dominions to agree that civilian deaths CAUSED BY ENEMY ACTION should be recognised in WW2 and the CWGC Royal Charter was amended so that they could commemorate the names. Note that deaths caused by other than enemy action are not recorded and so industrial accidents and illnesses to civilians such as munitions workers would not count. The amendment to the Charter gave CWGC no responsibility for caring for or recording the graves of WW2 civilians who died due to enemy action - only to record the names. The responsibility for recording such deaths was given to local authorities in the UK and similar authorities overseas. They supplied CWGC with the names, date of death, location of death and age - nothing else. The names were inscribed by CWGC in Books of Remembrance which are kept in Westminster Abbey and a page is turned each day. The names are also included in the CWGC online Debt of Honour. No such amendment was made for WW1 and so similar deaths from that war are not recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KevinEndon Posted 28 February , 2008 Share Posted 28 February , 2008 I think the starting point would be to get some sort of list together, which may not be easy. I do see some relevant files in TNA catalogue. regards, Martin it wouldn't have to contain names, just a memorial to those who kept the boys in arms. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 29 February , 2008 Share Posted 29 February , 2008 Terry, Thank you for your detailed answer. I can appreciate that if ever WW1 civilians were to be included in the charter there would be a very big problem in deciding which cases qualify after so many years. geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 29 February , 2008 Share Posted 29 February , 2008 Geoff due to some of the research that has been carried out by members of this forum into civilian casualties from the Great War I personnally dont think it would be too hard to come with a list for submission to the relevant authorities - a lengthy process I agree though Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 29 February , 2008 Share Posted 29 February , 2008 If it could be done for WW2 civilian casualties then it can be done for WW1 casualties too. A search of most localised newspapers between the years 1914-1919 will give the details of local civilian casualties due to enemy action. It's extremely unfair that WW1 casualties are treated differently. Personally I wouldn't stop there - What about all the Armed Forces (Army and R.Navy) casualties of all British wars and expeditions since the early 1800's (including Waterloo and Trafalgar)? Once again most of these losses have been documented. All that is required is a national index of war casualties. I know that there are literally thousands of enthusiasts out there who have compiled their own indexes on these lesser known wars and insurgencies. British soldiers have been laying down their lives for many centuries... I simply don't buy the excuse about the problems changing the CWGC Royal Charter, if there is sufficient support for a change it can be done very quickly. Why would it be a lengthy process? The Queen agrees tells her underlings to do it and the changes are made, there DONE! Surely WE should be demanding a change, NOT constantly making excuses and coming up with reasons why it shouldn't be done! It's about time the CWGC woke up... and we should stop defending them when they don't deserve it. Heres a start - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 1 March , 2008 Share Posted 1 March , 2008 Terry, Some time ago I threw this non-comm out after finding out he died whilst in service with the Cameroon/Nigerian Colonial Government Civil Service. Having read the above list (Sierra Leone Civil Service), is is possible his death might after all be recordable? His name appears on the DOVER civic war memorial. It seems sad his name isn't recorded bearing in mind he served throughout the war in Africa and died of flu so far from his family. - ________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________ Captain (Retd) George Sibbit PODEVIN. Political Officer, Bamenda, Cameroons. Formerly Special List, Attached Sourthern Nigeria Regiment. Died of Pnuemonia subsequent to Influenza 2 December 1918 aged 40 years. Born 1878 Dover. Son of Joseph G and Catherine Podevin (sometimes spelt Podwin) of 8 Pembridge Square, London. NOT A SERVING ARMY OFFICER WHEN DIED AS FIRST THOUGHT! He relinquished his commission on 22nd September 1915 and therefore is NOT entitled to a belated commemoration! London Gazette 5th December 1916 (Page 4) The undermentioned to be temp. •Copts. : — G. S. Podevin, from 8th Aug. 1914 to •28th Feb. 1915. SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE The date of the relinquishment of his commn. by temp. Capt. G. S. Podevin is 22nd Sept. 1915, and not as in the Gazette of 6th Dec. 1916. The conflict in Cameroon had been concluded by 1916 and no other large actions were fought there during the remaining years of the Great War. George had served in the South African Constabulary between 1901 and 1908, and was an Acting District Commissioner at Ogoja, Nigeria between May and August 1910, later holding the same position at Obudu, Nigeria prior to being promoted and becoming the District Officer in Bamenda, Cameroons. George had served with his regiment as a Transport Officer in the Cameroons during the Great War. At the time of the 1881 census the Podevin family and household staff resided at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover, Kent:- Joseph G. PODWIN Aged 29. Born Dover, Kent. Catherine PODWIN Aged 24. Born Dover, Kent. George S. PODWIN Aged 3. Born Dover, Kent. Richard I. PODWIN Aged 1. Born Dover, Kent. Margaret C. PODWIN Aged 3 months. Born Dover, Kent. Emma J. HOGBEN Aged 27. Born Whitstable, Kent. Cook Eliza A. HOLLIS Aged 19. Born Sittingbourne, Kent. Nurse Agnes E. C. WOOD Aged 17. Born Whitstable, Kent. Maid. There are only two casualties commemorated by the CWGC with the surname PODEVIN, one of whom died in the Great War and is buried in Charlton Cemetery, Dover, Kent. It would seem at first glance that the Kent (probably Dover) native Private CHARLES PODEVIN of the 43rd Battalion, Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment) was related to the above GEORGE SIBBIT PODEVIN. It was also noted when checking Canadian data that he is commemorated on page 486 of the Canadian First World War Book of Remembrance, and that his mothers Christian name was CATHERINE it being the same as the mother on the census, which of course means that G.S. and C PODEVIN might have actually have been brothers. The following information has been taken directly from Dave Dixon’s website Faded Genes - 1. George Sibbit PODEVIN, born Abt 1878 in Dover (Kent), baptized 16 Feb 1878 at St James the Apostle, Dover (Kent), census 1881 at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover (Kent), census 1891 in St James parish, Dover (Kent), occupation 1901 - 1908 South African Constabulary, occupation 1910 Acting Assistant District Commissioner - Ogoja, Nigeria, occupation 1918 Assistant District Commissioner and Political Officer (Transport), died 2 Dec 1918 at Bamenda, Cameroon, Africa. Parents 2. Joseph George PODEVIN, born 13 Aug 1851 in Dover (Kent), census 1881 at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover (Kent), census 1891 in St James parish, Dover (Kent), census 1901 at 2 Church Villas, Harold Street, Dover (Kent), occupation 1877 - 1909 Secretary, Royal Cinque Ports Yacht Club, died 7 May 1909 at 2 Church Villas, Harold Street, Dover (Kent) - Aged 57. He married Catherine IRONS, 24 Mar 1877 at St James the Apostle, Dover (Kent). Children: 1. i George Sibbit PODEVIN, born Abt 1878 in Dover (Kent), baptized 16 Feb 1878 at St James the Apostle, Dover (Kent), census 1881 at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover (Kent), census 1891 in St James parish, Dover (Kent), occupation 1901 - 1908 South African Constabulary, occupation 1910 Acting Assistant District Commissioner - Ogoja, Nigeria, occupation 1918 Assistant District Commissioner and Political Officer (Transport), died 2 Dec 1918 at Bamenda, Cameroon, Africa. ii Richard Irons PODEVIN, born Abt 1879 in Dover (Kent), census 1881 at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover (Kent), census 1891 in St James parish, Dover (Kent), died 15 Nov 1909 in Johannesburg, South Africa - Aged 30. iii Margaret Catherine PODEVIN, born 1881 in Dover (Kent), census 1881 at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover (Kent), census 1891 in St James parish, Dover (Kent), census 1901 at 2 Church Villas, Harold Street, Dover (Kent). 3. Catherine IRONS, born Sep 1856 in Dover (Kent), census 1881 at 16 Guildford Terrace, Charlton, Dover (Kent), census 1891 in St James parish, Dover (Kent), census 1901 at 2 Church Villas, Harold Street, Dover (Kent), resided 1918 at 16 Pembridge Square, London. Grandparents 4.Joseph John Jackson PODEVIN, born 1 May 1807, baptized 17 May 1807 at St Mary the Virgin, Dover (Kent), occupation 1840 - 1850 Publican - The Kings Head, 10 Clarence Place, Dover (Kent), died Mar 1875 in Dover (Kent) - Aged 67. He married Margaret DIVERS, 28 Jun 1849 at St Mary the Virgin, Dover (Kent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 1 March , 2008 Share Posted 1 March , 2008 Neil Reading your evidence above I would say that there is no reason to assume he would qualify. You first assumption appears to be correct. He was not serving military personnel and nor was he a member of one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations. He died a civilian and as such is outside the remit of CWGC granted by the Royal Charter as drawn up jointly by the governments of the member countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 1 March , 2008 Share Posted 1 March , 2008 Terry, Thank you for looking at it anyway.... Regards Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margaretcameron Posted 19 November , 2010 Share Posted 19 November , 2010 Margaret Cameron of 11 EVANSTON ave KIRKSTALL, LEEDS died of TNT poisoning from her work at Barnbow. Her death is registered in the September quarter 1917. Anyone with more information about Margaret or even a pic please contact us at chrissiemichaels@ymail.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 19 November , 2010 Share Posted 19 November , 2010 Chris You would be probably be better off starting a new thread in Home/Civilians sub forum. This thread is now a tad out of date Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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