Jacky Platteeuw Posted 22 January , 2003 Share Posted 22 January , 2003 TALBOT HOUSE 1915-2004? I have been thinking a lot before posting this with the above title but I have to get it out of my system. In today's paper I read an article about Talbot House. The very promising title was (my translation) " Talbot House makes museum of neglected hopstore". The article continued stating that after renovation the old hopstore would serve as a museum, archives and hall for parties. I quote (my translation) "The ground floor will be a museum about Talbot House and the War, on the first floor there will be projections and space for parties. In the ridge a space will be available for worpshops, the upper-room will become a reflection space". So far nothing but good to very good news. However the article finishes with following (my translation) "Talbot House is a museum as well as a hotel. The last few years the building has suffered a lot from the intense use.AFTER THE RESTORATION OF THE CONCERT HALL THE VISITORS WILL ENTER VIA DE POTTESTRAAT etc.". My english isn't good enough to express my feelings about this. For me this is no more or less than taking THE SPIRIT out of the House. For decades, soldiers during the Great War, thousands of visitors, amongst them a lot of veterans, after the War ringed or knocked at that door to be welcomed into another world. Now this would come to an end and for what reason?. Personally I don't know of any valuable one and certainly don't accept the poor excuse, a sophism if you ask me, of the "intense use". The only reason I can think of is the eternal "money". How I don't know but there are certainly possibilities such as, a guess from me, asking two entrance fees one for the museum and one for the House. I am really disgussed by the idea that the old door would be closed forever one day. Tubby will turn himself into his grave and with him a lot of soldiers who found some moments of distraction, friendship and peace within the walls of Talbot House. I certainly will campaign against such an act of desecration. I would very much appreciate your opinion about this. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 Jacky, I certainly agree that entering Talbot House is one of the great experiences of a visit to the Ypres area. For me the knowledge that I am going through the self same portal that my Grandfather and Great Uncle both did is most important. Ending our ability to do this would seem to be a bit of "control freakery" that demands explanation. Access control for collection of entrance money and improved "merchandise sales opportunities" would seem the most likely motivations To what degree is TH now under the control and influence of the IFF Museum. I think IFF may have been involved in the design and execution of the new area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 For me the knowledge that I am going through the self same portal that my Grandfather and Great Uncle both did is most important. I have to agree with Ian's comments with regards to doing the same thing his ancestors did so many years ago. I have only been to Toc H once, although another visit is planned later this year. But to know that two of great grandfathers, a grandfather and both of my great uncles all used Toc H at least once during WWI and had entered the building the same way I had was, for me, very moving. To change the entry point will take away some of that 'magic' of the place, which cannot be good. Unfortunatly it appears that wherever we look nowdays someone is trying to make that extra 'buck'. I was asked for payment at a local church, by a right 'little Hitler' of a Churchwarden, just to take a photo of a War Memorial that was outside the church grounds. I was told that the payment (of £5!!) was for the upkeep of the church, I didn't pay but my girlfriend took the picture whilst I argued with the Warden! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 For me Talbot House and the hop loft chapel is a special place, as I know my Great Uncle, Spr Jimmy Quantrill 156 Fd Co RE, was there before he went he went south to be killed near Bullecourt in November 1917. I had heard of this happening some time ago, but the plans weren't decided then - this is a real shame, a tragedy - to close the front door of Talbot House, closes a whole chapter on the history of the Great War... I personally won't visit this new "museum". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 Could we not ask Jacky Plattieuw or others local to 'Pop' to ask Talbot House management to clarify? Kerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 I find it hard to take seriously the fact that the house will be closed. The town merchants know it's their biggest draw for tourists. Seems to me they will surely raise so much hell that this will be quickly squelched! Hope I am right! About the museum, this may be a very good idea.Is this the famous hop warehouse theat still has a ghost sign from old days on it? If so surely the preservation of the sign and building is great news. Talbot House Jacques Ryckebosch is one of our speakers in Ieper in April and we go there as part of our US Branch tour. I will certainly make our feelings known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 Jacky I asked about this today when I phoned to make a reservation. It was made clear to me that this was a decision that was not made lightly and the staff seem as disappointed as anyone about having to make it. Apparently the strain on the building has been great in recent years with so many visitors. I didn't ask about the money side of things but I can't imagine this is the motivation behind the decision to "close the door," unless it is because there is a lack of money available to make acceptable improvements. I well remember my first visit to the House with my son on a rare quiet day and being welcomed with a nice cup of English tea after the long drive. I have no doubt Jacques and his excellent staff will still make the experience of visiting Talbot House as good as it has always been, even if it may not be quite the same for some of us and I hope the museum is a great success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 I have to agree with all the above posters, Talbot House is a "special" place and as such should be retained in its original form as far as is humanly possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 23 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2003 It is a little bit difficult (not to say extremely difficult) for me to understand that closing the front door will releave the strain on the building especially when in the same article another quote is given by a responsable of the VZW (Flemish for Charity Fund) Talbot House (my translation)" with the extension we HAVE to welcome from 2004 on yearly 50.000 visitors. This is a DOUBLING of the actual number" end quote. Now that is clearing up things a little more. Speaking of contradiction !!!. How can one state on one side that there has been to much strain on the building the last few years and on the other side stating that doubling the number of visitors is a primary ame for next year. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 23 January , 2003 Share Posted 23 January , 2003 It would seem inevitable that access will be eventually severely reduced to the more vulnerable parts of the house. I can't see that the 50,000 once attracted will be allowed unfettered access to the chapel. Perhaps they plan to pipe a closed circuit TV picture of the chapel down to the new display areas. You could then buy a video rather than having to make the trek up there ! Think of the health and safety benefits. For all those who have had the privilege of a solitary visit to the chapel , losing one of the great spiritual experiences associated with the Great War would be dreadful. I hope my bad feelings about these developments are just my normal reactionary Brit paranoia showing again ! I think I will be paying a visit in April to view developments myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dries Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 Dear all, I’ve been reading through the whole – and interesting – discussion on the front door of Talbot House, a place I very well know since I ‘ve got a job over there and I’m fully involved in the improving of the “merchandise sales opportunities” by the the renovation of the Concert Hall. Let’s only start with a nice anecdote on that front door. Some weeks ago, one of our many welcome visitors after his visit tried to leave the building, but he didn’t succeed -- the doorhandle came off as he tried to open the door. The diagnosis by the workman who came over to repair it, was as simple as that: worn-out. But he repaired it anyway, by drilling yet another pair of holes in that majestic door… I read in the opening of the discussion that “after the restoration of the concert hall the visitors will enter via de pottestraat”. And to be sure, that is true. The extended visit to TH will start in the Concert Hall. And there’s is a good reason for that. On the ground floor of the former hopstore, we plan to build a new exhibition on “the life behind the lines”. As all of you know, during WW 1 the Town of Pop really was the focal point of the British sector of the allied armies. Camps and hospitals, endless streams of troops and transport, entertainment of all kinds, estaminets and coffeeshops – they made the quiet town grewing into a bustling and colourful metropolis. It is exactly in the midst of this area and of this town that Talbot House opened its doors – and what was striking to many of its visitors was not only the contrast with the Ypres experiences, but above all even with the kind of life they knew behind the lines. So if the new exhibition will be worth seeing of its own, it further makes up an important introduction to the visit to the house, as it will help fully to understand the ‘exceptional’ character of the work done by Tubby Clayton and his staff. This contrast even will be experienced by the visitor, who after his walk through the exhibition will end up in the garden of the house – that other symbol of quietness and peace the house stands for. Does all this mean that “the old door would be closed forever one day” ? Yes, the visitor won’t be let in by the front door. But of course, many of them don’t have the moving experience described as “going through the self same portal that my Grandfather and Great Uncle both did”. For many or even most of our visitors there simply is no such “magic” in entering by that door – so how could it be “taken away”? – and those who indeed have that kind of strong and personal feelings about the place will still be welcomed at the front door as “friends of the house” or – let’s not forget! -- as residents. More than we can garantee them today, residents will be regarded as a special kind of visitors -- and exactly the way it is now, they will continue to enter the house by its front door (they even temporarily get a key to it!) So finally, it is not true that that door will be closed forever – it will be reserved however for those really engaged in the house, its story and its history. Is that option really “a real shame, a tragedy”? There is another strange conception about the house. Talbot House indeed “is a special place and as such should be retained in its original form”. But a closer look to the postwar history of the place makes it very difficult to decide on that originality or authenticity. There is a nice 1916 picture– the only one to be preserved -- of the garden. It shows the back wall of the house and some guards on a bench – and it shows good old Pettifer, Tubby’s batman. He sits against the wall of the wartime bath-house. If you now would go into the garden to take the position of the photographer, the situation is very well alike – except for Pettifer. You would not be able to see him nor the bath-house he is sitting in front of. It is hidden by the one and most incomprehensible fact that ever happened to the garden, which is the building of the new bath-house, known by all of you as the Slessorium. For some most primitive purposes a beautiful corner of the wartime garden has been given up – and by who?! By men”who knew”, men who “were there”. It was built in the early thirties, as to provide the residents and pilgrims to the re-opened house some trivial sanitary facilities -- a bath, a shower, some toilets and yes, some urinals! Think of it -- to pee on the place that once was the garden of Talbot House! What “an act of desecration”! And where was Tubby? Didn’t he “turn himself into his grave”? Not at all – not only because he was still alive at that time, but above all: he was a great supporter! The new bath house was a necessity to accommodate the hundreds and thousands of pilgrims – so there was no choice, even if the ‘authenticity’ of the place had to be offered… Where those men wrong then? Or did they understand – better than some of us seem to be able today – that the remembrance of their comrades asks for actual measures so as to preserve the past for the future generations? So if it was decided today to close the front door of Talbot House for the main part of the visitors, why shouldn’t we believe that our own children and grandchildren will be glad we tried and did “preserve” it for them too, by not “using” it fully ourselves? And finally, we shouldn’t believe anything read “in today’s paper”. We shouldn’t decide to campaign against what we only “have heard of” – it might indeed be better to get informed first. And then, if one is really concerned, there might be more fruitfull ways to express that concern than an internet discussion forum… Remember that you agreed that you would not use this forum to post any material which is false, defamatory, or inaccurate. Kind regards, Dries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 Sorry Dries - but all of the above is fair comment; no-one is accusing any individual; we are all naturally concerned about the commercial development of a site that some of us struggle to see as commercial. I understand the problems you face only too well having taken many thousands of people through that magic door over the years; and I can assure you that their entrance via it impresses them more than you think. After one visit, all of them want to go again. The spirit of the house is such that it affects you in that way. Any modernisation would have to tread a careful path, so that future visitors would want to go again and again, rather than just tick TH off the list of Flanders "museums" visited. If you are going to market the house as a 'product', then you want to make sure that product is appealing to be used more than once - and you should be wary of gearing the whole thing to school groups... while they visit now in great numbers, what if WW1 is eclipsed in the UK NC by WW2, as seems to be increasingly the case? Perhaps, as a courtesy, you might tell us who you are and what your position in the house is - quoting someone who has "got a job there" is about as useful as listening to newspaper stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 So once again a British based Great War forum seems to have managed to ruffle Belgian feathers . It seems strange to question the correctness of Belgians and other interested parties based in various countries using an internet discussion forum to discuss changes to the operation of Talbot House. How else can we all do this ? Personally, I welcome this issue being brought to our attention initially from Belgium. In my previous posting I specifically mention my intention to visit the house personally in April to find out what is proposed. I am sure all of us will want to find out exactly what is proposed. I find it regrettable that that Dries , in his final sentence , finds it necessary to wag a stern finger in our direction re. false , defamatory or innacurate statements. It seems to indicate that postings on this forum are being routinely monitored for "acceptability" against a set of criteria that we have not been made fully aware of. I also find his peremptory and dismissive attitude to the special nature of entering TH through the main door high handed and therefore in keeping with the overall faintly patronising tone of his posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 24 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2003 Remember that you agreed that you would not use this forum to post any material which is false, defamatory, or inaccurate. I won't comment yet on the bulk of Dries posting but above needs some explanation. Can I deduct from above statement that the article published in "Het Laatste Nieuws" on Wednesday 22th of January is 'false, defamatory and inaccurate'? As for using an internet discussion forum. In the past it has been used in a very 'fruitfull' way. When two years ago 'Battlefield Scavengers was broadcasted the internet discussion forum was the first and only mean of defence and has turned out to be a extremely powerfull. I can't agree more than with Paul's remark that no individual has been accused or even pointed with the finger. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 As moderator of this forum, I can not see how anyone has broken any rules on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 I very badly missed the point and thought Talbot House was to be closed. I will keep an open mind on the new entrance matter and if it's truly important to the integrity of the structure itself I will be in favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 Interesting to note that the justifiably famous and soon to be semi-redundant TH front door is a major feature of the TH website and also featured in other illustrious publications such as "Before Endeavours Fade". I now presume that the the Reverend's famous sign inviting pessimists to leave by the door will now be re-orientated to point towards the newly designated egress and entry facilitation point located conveniently adjacent to the restaurant/dvd & book sales point/concert booking facility and the audio visual presentation area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 ianw The Talbot House website has a contact address. Why not ring/email them and find out? They will be happy to answer your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_McGarry Posted 24 January , 2003 Share Posted 24 January , 2003 When I visited TH last year (for the first time) I was deeply moved by the whole experience, especially Jacques Ryckebosch's passion for the subject. I came away wanting to go back. It is a special place, whilst there I didn't feel that I was in a gift shop/museum. I felt that I was in a place that still had a purpose. The front entrance is important as when you knock you get invited in... Whatever entrance is used I hope nothing of that is lost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 25 January , 2003 Share Posted 25 January , 2003 In reply to Alan's suggestion that I contact Talbot House, I would suggest that they have already contacted us by way of the essay/posting from Dries. His email address recorded on his information sheet being dries@talbothouse.be . Therefore, I regard his posting as semi-official at least. I have already recorded my overall opinion of his posting. That said, I do propose to visit TH in April and I think I will now reserve any further comments until after that visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 27 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2003 I have decided, for the time being, not to respond to the posting of Dries. I find it mostly patronising and to a certain degree even denigrating and certainly don't want to enter in a personnal discussion which most of us known where it could too. This stated I am still interested in forum user's opinion about this extremely important issue. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dries Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Dear all, First of all, I’can’t deny the ‘enthusiasm’ that speaks from my previous posting – there is so much rumour about the whole Concert Hall Project, that sometimes it really gets one sick and tired. The last thing “I heard” about it myself is that we planned to offer resident accommodation in the former hopstore. Another one: that the Talbot House Association bought a block of flats (!!!) in the Veurnestraat… So I hope you can understand that it is not always easy to stay calm – and I equally hope that those among you who judged my posting peremptory, dismissive, high handed or patronising will be fair enough to give me a second chance. In now way I have wanted to deny the truth and sincerity in all of your concerns – but what strikes me is its ‘undertone’: it seems generally believed that those involved in the management of the House do not know and realize what they are doing, and haven’t made (and even still make now) very deliberate decisions on all matters involved. As you may know, the hopstore was bought buy the Association not recently, but in 1996. At that time, the amount of visitors was some 12.000 – a number quite comparable to that of the foregoing years. So the then decision to buy the building certainly was not inspired by considerations of commercialisation and visitor management. More than talked of in all former postings, it was a very emotional decision: every member of the Association knew that the hopstore ‘belonged’ to Talbot House and its (hi)story – and that was a good enough reason not to let the building fall into the hands of some “real estate” agent, putting an apartment building down over there. The opportunity really was a ‘historic’ one – now or never. Everybody dreamt of restoring the former (and “original!”) unity of the place – however nobody knew at that time (and certainly not in detailed terms) what ever would be done to it. You must understand that it is hard to take the criticism of “commercialisation”, if you know that the buying of the Concert Hall fundamentally ‘happened’ on very emotional grounds. I don’t know if anyone of you already entered the building – but it has as much authenticity as the House itself. Only a piano over there would make you sing… Meanwhile, it took some five years to develop the project of restoring the former Concert Hall, and of planning its new destination. As it was an original part of the place, it was clear that some ‘integration’ with the visit to Talbot House should be worked out – and truly, this is what has been done. The whole project however is of such a complexity that is not easy to communicate it by means of a discussion forum. But anyway, let’s give it a try: (1) I already mentioned the new exhibition on “life behind the lines” (groundfloor) – and I hope to have made the point on its relation with the Talbot House institution. Taking that relation into account, it seems very appropriate to start the overal visit from that exhibition: it sets the context for a good understanding of the character and the meaning of the House. The exhibition in a way will replace the Slessorium introductory slide show that untill now was given to groups – and to groups only. From now on, also the individual visitors (!) will get that (extended) introduction to the area and to the Town of Pop. So in this way, not only the care and preservation of it, but even the logic of the story asks for another entrance than the Talbot House front door. (2) The moving of the entrance to the Pottestraat indeed brings us to the point of the ‘closing’ of the front door. As I tried to tell you in my previous posting, the statement that the door will be closed forever is no accurate articulation of the idea. Clearly, there is no question of having our residents entering via the Pottestraat, there will always be special occasions on which the front door will be the entrance to the house, and nobody is denying that friends to the place won’t be let in by that old door. But a further and quite important point is that by moving the main and regular visitor entrance to the Pottestraat, we get the possibility to take away the pressure of all visitor matters (administrative procedures, etc) from the entrance hall of the House. That has some undeniably welcome advantages. One is that we – finally – can move that silly shop from the marvelous lounge, so as to upgrade that room for our residents. Another is that the hall itself will no longer function as the ‘crowdy reception room’ for parties, so that this place will and can be worth of its own stories again. I often wonder how many of the (school-)party members got even only a glimpse of the friendship corner’s list of names, of the finger-printed army map, or of the wartime placard on Talbot Houses “Services and Social Side”. Most telling documents – but they simply can’t catch the eye of yet another party swinging in or out. I certainly won’t deny that entering by the front door has a meaningful and emotional value; but I am very much concerned about some other very meaningful and emotional values that nowadays struggle for their lives by the use of this door as a regular entrance to the place. (3) The Slessorium also has a role to play. Untill know it functioned as the projection room for the introductory slide show. As that introduction will be replaced and enriched by the new exhibition, the Slessorium gets a new destination as the place where the Talbot House history itself will be shown, told and explained. To be sure, we don’t want (we didn’t even think of it!) to have displays or audiovisuals in the House – but on the other hand there are so many nice stories to be told, so much archive material to be seen that we decided to make a colourful ‘exhibition’ on the House itself in the Slessorium. In doing so we got discharged of telling stories in the house itself – as we didn’t want to bring in panels, captions, or – no way -- CDroms. We believe that in this way we can ‘tell’ the story (in the Slessorium) that afterwards can be ‘experienced’ (in the House itself) – and it is hoped that this also will help to bring some relief to the house. So – and I hope nobody had doubted about that – a visit to the house will still and certainly be possible. The closing of the front door no way means that the house will be closed to visitors. The only questions visitors will be confronted with are these: “Does it really interest me to ‘feel’ the house, even if I have (already) been told about it? Do I have enough time to add that actual visit? Does it personally and emotionally interest me to do so?” – and of course, as money is an inevitable factor by which many of our daily choices are made up -- ”Do I want to pay a supplement for that?” In this way what we tried to do is exactly the opposite of “gearing the whole thing to school groups.” We aim – and we’ll have to evaluate our success – to filter the (big) mass of our visitors, only to have the ones really interested or involved (the ones like you) actually coming into the house. Nobody for now knows if this will work – but isn’t there some judiciousness in it? And if so: why shouldn’t we then give it a chance? And last but not least: is there really trivial commerce involved in the reasoning? (4) The last part of the future visit will be the ‘enactment’ of the social and cultural activities that we know to have taken place in the former Concert Hall. This will be an audiovisual show, on the first floor (the original “Concert Hall floor”) of the hopstore. We still have to do (many) work on that, so forgive me if I can’t tell you more for the moment. But here again, there are some nice, meaningful, ànd moving stories to be told… (5) There is much more to be told – but there is as much work still to be done. So let me conclude and answer some final questions: - I am Dries, and as I wrote in my first posting, I am fully (and temporarily) involved in the Concert Hall Project. - I am here since December 2000 – as Talbot House got a grant from the Flemish Government by mediation of IFF. So to answer the question on IFF: there is no other structural link between TH and IFF than that we finally got some government money thanks to their intervention. That’s it. And it created the welcome possibility for us to work upon some files which meanwhile brought us to some new (and no longer mediated by IFF) grants. So we can go on. - And no, I do not say that the newspaper information as such is 'false, defamatory and inaccurate'. But I wondered in reading the discussion – for all of you being really and personally concerned, and all of you knowing the place well enough – why we ourselves at Talbot House have to ‘discover’ your concerns and opinions in this most impersonal way. If one feels not at ease, why telling it to the world and not to those causing the problem? May that (and no more) be the meaning of my remarks on newspapers and discussion forums… I hope one day to meet all of you, and perhaps we’ll have a cup of tea in the Talbot House kitchen (no, it won’t be closed…). Kind regards, Dries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Thanks for your posting Dries. It certainly clarifies a number of things. I will be in the Ypres area along with a number of other forum users on the weekend of 11th to 13th April and intend to visit Talbot House then. I hope you will be "in residence" on one of these days as it would be a good opportunity to get the full idea of how the House is to be developed in future years and clear up any misconceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Louagie Jan Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Dear All Can I take the liberty to introduce myself ? I am the Secretary of the Talbot House Association, the organization which owns and runs the Talbot House estate. First of all I would like to endorse the comments made by Dries, who is a member of staff at Talbot House and who does a splendid job there. Please do not catch him on the use of particular words or on the tone of his message. He means well and is simply surprised or amazed (to put it mildly), like myself and my other colleagues of the Administrative Coucnil as well as other members of staff at Talbot House, about all the rumours that seem to be spread about the future of Talbot House without people taking the trouble to get themselves properly informed. There are no secrets about the future developments. These have been carefully prepared for many years and we have consulted a large number of people in all possible fields. In the coming months we will intensify our communication about the whole project. Please also keep an eye on our website. In the meantime you are always welcome at Talbot House where Mrs Annelies Vermeulen, chief executive, as well as the other staff, will gladly answer all your questions. Yours Jan Louagie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 27 January , 2003 Share Posted 27 January , 2003 Well for one I like their attitude and look forward to our large WFA USA group visiting there during our April trip, it will be my third time there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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