Researching my great grandfather.

[Guest nienna]

Hello to everyone..I am new to this site..but have found it very interesting and informative...and very moving.

I have been researching my great Grandfather. Below are his details.

Thomas William Duckers.

Lance corporal

Royal Welsh Fusiliers

6650 Ist Bn

Died 28th August 1916

France.

I have looked up on the long long trail site and got some info on war diaries etc of the regiment. From this I think that my Great Grandfather was killed during the Somme campaign.

I would be greatful of any advice anyone could give me as to where I could get more information on anything to do with his regiment.

I would dearly love to see photo's etc of the battalion.

I was told by my Grandmother, his daughter, that he was a despatch rider and he was killed in the course of his duties when he rode over a landmine. His body was never found and his name is on the Thiepval Memorial. I would welcome any information on the duties of despatch riders. I know that it was a dangerous job. I would love to know if any one knows where I could get any information on the type of motor bike that he may have ridden.

I have also gathered that his army records may be contained in those that were burnt/lost during the second world war so I know I may not get any info there..or is there any where else I can gather any information at all.

Another question I have is that before the war he was employed as a fireman at the Levers bros factory in Port Sunlight Wirral. I think that most of the men from that factory volunteered and all joined the local Liverpool regiment. Does any one know any reason as to why he might have joined the Royal welsh fusiliers? Was it because as regiments had their full quota that men were allocated other regiments. I cannot find a Welsh connection ie he had Welsh blood etc that I know of.

I have a copy of the letter that he sent home from France shortly before he was killed. My Aunt has the original. It is very moving and poignant. His wife was left with 4 children and due to give birth to twins when he was killed.

I am a novice at this so if I am asking the wrong things please bear with me and I am sorry if my questions are a bit vague..but I would welcome any pointers as to where to start.

My Grandfathers name is on our local cenotaph and also Lever Bros memorial. Each year we salute him. My dear Grandmother always wanted to know more about what his army life would have been like and to go to France to visit Thiepval. Sadly she never got that chance but I would like to do this for her and also in greateful thanks to my Great Grandfather who like so many brave soldiers gave their life.

Thank you for any advice given.

Nienna.

[Stebie9173]

It would be unusual for an infantryman to be a despatch rider, but I couldn't say that it definitely wasn't the case.

Thomas was a Regular soldier before the war (probably still serving with the 1st RWF in Malta, or else held on reserve). He went to France with the first contingent of the 1st RWF on 6-10-1914, landing at Zeebrugge on the 7-10-1914, qualifying him for the 1914 Star.

Following his landing in France, he went through some of the heaviest battles in France and Flanders of 1915. See:

http://www.1914-1918.net/7div.htm

His Medal Index Card states "Death Accepted 28-8-1916", suggesting that he was posted missing on that date.

CWGC has at least 19 men of the battalion killed on that day, suggesting that Thomas was killed in a battle or skirmish on that day with his infantry battalion rather than alone. If no-one looks up the 1st RWF actions on that day I'll have a look this evening.

Steve.

[daggers]

Welcome to the Forum, Nienna.

You have found a lot of information already and there will be pals here who can help you out with more details, especially about things like DRs, motor bikes etc. The RWF had a depot at Litherland, just outside Liverpool, during part of the war which may account for your grandfather being recruited by them There were also times when men were allocated to battalions with low numbers, though his number and '1st Battalion' seem to indicate early enlistment. Again, others will help. Have you downloaded his MIC - Medal Index Card from the National Archives website? It will cost you £3.50 and will show his entitlement to campaign medals, and just possibly other information [do not count on too much].

Good hunting.

Daggers

[Adam Llewellyn]

Hi Nienna,

The medal index card for Thomas is available on Ancestry. If you have not already got it, send me a pm with your e mail and i'll forward it to you.

Regards. Llew.

British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920

about Thomas W Duckers

Name: Thomas W Duckers

Regiment or Corps: 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Regimental Number: 6650

[the gunners dream]

Hi Nienna,

These are his details on the Soldiers Died in the Great War database. It records him as KIA on the date already mentioned. According to that database he was one of twenty other ranks killed that day.

The Official History of the Somme puts them in support of the Durham Light Infantry in clearing out Ale Alley far east as Beer Trench, but the attack failed. Both trenches were roughly situated to the north east of Delville Wood. If you PM me I can send you some further info.

I'm wondering if the info was missinterpreted as him being a battalion runner, rather than a despatch rider. Both have the same role, but the runner sounds more plausible as that is generally how messages were sent at battalion level.

Steve

[sotonmate]

Nienna

My first reaction was similar to Stebie's in respect of despatch riders. The Long Long Trail has partially confirmed my belief that DRs were part of a Royal Engineers Field and Signal Company. This belief could be strengthened by the book which I saw in Amazon, called Despatch Riders of World War 1 by a Captain WHL Wilson of the Signals Section RE. The cover shows two motor cycles of the time,which doubtless an afficianado can identify !

I too am of the belief that your GGF was a Bn.runner,unless he transferred out to the RE !

Runners were a very dangerous occupation,being the target of many a sniper and often having to return to Divisional or Battalion HQ,maybe at a time when enemy artillery were trying to seal off the frontal attacks from reinforcement,and so shelled behind our lines quite heavily. I would subscribe to a shell strike rather than a land mine. Did they have those devices then ? I know they made huge mines under ground and exploded them beneath the front lines.

In case you haven't seen the stirring sight of Thiepval here is a link,there is a video on it:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/today/thiepval.htm

I have a library book called "The Somme-the day-to-day Account" by Chris Mc Carthy and will look for the 7th Division around the time of your GGFs death.

You might also be interested in another fact which I read recently in the book "The Somme" by Peter Hart. It says that there were times when Battalions took stock,days after events,of who was still missing,who could be confirmed dead,and those known to have been wounded. It suggests that those still missing and not accounted for would be declared dead on that day,rather than the day they first went missing. This might be the case for your GGF.

Good luck with your mission,there is a LOT of help here !

Best wishes

Sotonmate

[daggers]

Nienna.

I'm back, not having twigged that your gt-grandfather was a regular soldier, so my earlier remarks were not very relevant. In Gerald Gliddon's 'The Battle of the Somme, a topographical history' there are numerous references to the 1st Bn, RWF in 1916 and you might be able to get this through your local library. Page 331 mentions Siegfried Sassoon and his fictionalised memoirs, and another book by one of the battalion: 'Nothing of Importance' by Bernard Adams. Roberts Graves was another member of the battalion and author whose work could interest you.

Daggers

[Stebie9173]

From the History of the 7th Division:

Since the [7th] Division had left the fighting area on July 21st [1916] desperate struggles had been going on, round Guillemont, Ginchy, and Delville Wood on the right, round High Wood in the centre, and round Pozieres on the left. It had been an unsatisfactory and disappointing time. Division after Division had been put in and had lost heavily without apparently achieving anything appreciable or in any way commensurate with the casualties. Some progress had been made ; but every yard gained had had to be fought for with desperation and represented a long casualty list. The Germans too had suffered severely, especially in their repeated counter-attacks, and they had only retained a grip on the points of contention by tremendous exertions and desperate endeavours. It had been a contest of attrition, and if the British had used up a terrible amount of man-power the strain on their opponents' resources had been not less great, and in the aggregate these weeks had yielded gains. But the last week of August came without the British obtaining complete control of Delville Wood and without the barrier represented by the line Ginchy-Guillemont-Falfemont Farm being broken through. But it was essential that this should be accomplished before Sir Douglas Haig could start his next really big attack in which he proposed to employ the new weapon, whose preparation had been enshrouded in such careful secrecy, the Tanks. Had things gone better the Seventh Division was to have been kept back to be fresh for this attack, but they were going none too well round Delville Wood and Ginchy, and the Division was called upon therefore to take a share in the preliminary work of securing a good starting-line for the big effort.

On August 18th the 22nd Brigade had been placed under two hours' notice, so the summons to the front which it received on the 26th was not altogether unexpected, and that evening it relieved portions of the Fourteenth Division on the Eastern edge of Delville Wood and of the Twentieth Division facing Ginchy. (1)

At the moment the Germans, though dislodged from all but a small corner of Delville Wood, were holding several trenches running into the wood and had prevented the British from establishing more than a slight hold on them. But these trenches ran across the top of the ridge leading from Delville Wood Eastward and flanked the approaches to Ginchy from the West. Their capture was therefore essential; and early on the morning of August 27th bombers of the Royal Welch Fusiliers began fighting for the possession of Ale Alley, which entered Delville Wood at its N.E. corner. (2)

A bitter struggle followed ; after two hours the Fusiliers had gained about 30 yards but were held up by machine-gun fire from farther along the Alley ; from Hop Alley they had also pushed North along Beer Trench for about 91 yards and for a rather less distance East along Vat Alley, while about 50 prisoners had been taken. Further efforts to gain ground in Ale Alley, however, were unsuccessful, even when assisted by a battalion of the Fourteenth Division farther to the left, though they tried rushing it after a barrage of rifle-grenades. On the right fair progress had been made with a new trench, Stout Trench, some little distance up the slope in front of ZZ Alley, till then the advanced line, though the work was greatly impeded by German shelling, which inflicted many casualties, among them Major Greig, commanding the 54th Field Company, who had brought his men up to assist in consolidation. The shelling indeed was so heavy that the old trenches, already bad, became almost unrecognizable, and it was simpler to dig new ones than to try to repair the old ones. On the night of the 28th/29th, working-parties of the Royal Warwickshires did fine work in pushing forward over 100 yards from Stout Trench and beginning a new trench to which the name Porter Trench was given. These trench-names became distinctly unpopular later on - those condemned to hold them in sultry weather, with only a very limited supply of water to drink, complained bitterly that the trench-names excited rather than assuaged thirst.

For three more days the 22nd Brigade stuck to its line, despite constant shelling and sniping; the Welch Fusiliers indeed gained some ground in Ale Alley by bombing, (3) while on the right the new trenches were getting on well. On the night of the 29th/30th, the South Staffords and 21st Manchesters relieved the front-line battalions (4) and next day the relief was completed, the Queen's taking their place as support battalion, the 22nd Manchesters being back in Reserve.

1 The Royal Welch Fusiliers took over the left of the line, the 20th Manchesters being on their right, the Royal Warwickshires in support, and the Royal Irish in reserve.

2 The Welch Fusiliers' line formed a sharp salient; their left company, " B," lined Hop Alley, a trench which entered Delville Wood just South of its N.E. corner, " D " in Beer Trench, which faced Eastwards, was at right angles to " B ", " C " on the right faced S.E. towards Ginchy, forming a more or less " refused " flank.

3 In all they made about 170 yards and nearly reached the junction of Ale Alley and Beer Trench.

4 The Welch Fusiliers' casualties testified to the severity of the fighting, coming to over 200 in four days, while the 20th Manchesters had nearly 160, practically all due to the bombardment.

---

British Battalions on the Somme has a smilar narrative for the 1st Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Picking up from 12th August 1916 (the battalion had previously succesfully fought at Mametz Wood on the 1st day of the Somme).

"To Dernancourt (12/8), north end of Bernafay Wood (26/8). Attack on Ale Alley (28/8) - bombing commenced 5 a.m. - enemy cleared and block set up at west end of objective. Advanced further along Beer Trench - heavy casualties among "B" and "C" companies. Relieved and to Bonte Redoubt (29/8)."

---

Circumstantially, he may then have been a battalion bomber (specialist grenade-thrower) rather than a motorcycle rider.... but perhaps a runner fits best, as no doubt more than just the battalion bombers were in action that day.

Steve.

[the gunners dream]

Delville Wood to the west with Ale and Beer trench to the east.

Steve

The area today seen using IGN.

Steve

[Guest nienna]

Thank you all so much for your help..I am overwhelmed. It was very interesting to hear so many of your thoughts on the fact that Thomas was more likely to be a Bn runner rather than despatch rider. I suppose that as the information about him was received and handed down the family that depatch runner could have become despatch rider etc

I did think that there may have been a discrepency as I understood that his Bn wouldn't normally have such riders. However the job he did, be it runner was also so dangerous and makes me truly proud of him.

Thank you so much for the links to sites..the videos...the information on books and the maps etc. They have been a real help and will no doubt bring some more answers. I will be looking for the books and the video on Thiepval was very moving. The maps helps give some idea on the scale etc.

It is very sad but also interesting and of course a personal subject to so many affected..to which none of us should forget what was given by so many. It is important to keep telling the facts to the future generations.

I will be visiting the Royal Welsh Fusiliers museum in Caernafon Castle Wales very shortly to see the type of uniform and other things that he would have worn and used etc.

I also plan to visit Thiepval at some point.

Reading of the battles makes you realise just what these brave men went through..and how we must always keep their memory alive.

This is a wonderful site ...so very informative and I look foward to reading more and hearing other's searches and results and personal stories.

Thank you all again.

Nienna

[BillyH]

Resurrecting this topic after 12 years, in the hope that  'Guest nienna'  may see this reply.

I have a lot more info on this man but here is his photo for starters :

 

BillyH.

 

[Moonraker]

Sad to say, but I think that being termed a "Guest" indicates that "nienna" will never see this useful contribution and that there is no way in bringing it to their attention

[BillyH]

Yes you are right.

Just in case others who are (like me) confused as to what constitutes a 'Guest' our Moderator Spof has told me that the GWF delete accounts with fewer than 3 posts who have not visited the site for over a year. 

 

BillyH.

[sadbrewer]

A poignant tribute from The Liverpool Echo, August 28th, 1917.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. 

 

 

[Guest]

I have joined the site now after many years, previously a guest! 

 

I'm so thankful for the information already given and was very moved by the memorial message written by my great Grandmother. Thank you for posting it. It also brought to light a puzzle, as in the newspaper excerpt my Grandmother states Thomas William was 34 when he died. Going on birth dates etc we thought he was 32. But maybe it was a printing error.

But thank you again for all your lovely informative messages , they have been very helpful, and if there is any more information out there  I would be delighted to hear.

[BillyH]

Welcome back Nienna! As mentioned in a previous post I have a fair bit of information about Thomas Duckers if you want it.

Send me an e-mail address and I will forward it on. Don't give your e-mail address here or you may attract unwanted mail - send me a PM instead (personal message). To do this hover your cursor over my name and/or photo and you will see an option to message me.

BillyH.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Yes, you are correct, he was 32 at the time of his death, assuming he was this man  born in Birkenhead in September quarter 1883:

Births Sep 1883   (>99%)
DUCKERS	Thomas William		Birkenhead	8a	473

Many newspaper reports are incorrect about lots of stuff, but considering so much was happening, it's maybe not surprising. Lots of official records can be wrong too, so you must always work from facts that you can show are correct. Generally, Birth, Marriage & Death registrations are pretty accurate, certainly more accurate than newspapers.

[Guest]

Again, thank you all for your help.

BillyH have messaged you as requested.

[BillyH]

17 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes, you are correct, he was 32 at the time of his death, assuming he was this man  born in Birkenhead in September quarter 1883:

Many newspaper reports are incorrect about lots of stuff, but considering so much was happening, it's maybe not surprising. 

And Lever Brothers (wrongly) reported that he was 29 when he was killed!

BillyH.