George Armstrong Custer Posted 19 February , 2008 Share Posted 19 February , 2008 Can anyone post or direct me to an online picture of a Wilkinson's 1904 pattern sword? ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 19 February , 2008 Share Posted 19 February , 2008 At least for the Army, I've never heard of that pattern. Cavalry used the 1908 sabre (officers pattern was 1912). I believe Infantry officers were still using the 1897 pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 19 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2008 Sorry Michael, I should have added that I've reason to believe that it was an experimental pattern of which only a handful may have been produced. I do know, however, that it was definitely designated the '1904 pattern' by Wilkinson. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.G. Hopkins Posted 19 February , 2008 Share Posted 19 February , 2008 There was a Pattern 1904 Practice Gymnasia Sword: There was also a Pattern 1905 Staff Sergeant's Sword: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 20 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Thanks Michael and to J.G. for the fine pics of these two examples, though unfortunately neither is the one I'm looking for. The example I know of is presentation inscribed as follows: 'To _______ First sword of 1904 pattern.' So it's definitely a prototype or first production model of a sword designed for field use. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glosters Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 From 'Swords of the British Army' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 20 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2008 That's it! Thank you Glosters, that image and accompanying data is much appreciated. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Same thing, different grips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.G. Hopkins Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Of course, I should have looked in Robson! The first image posted by Glosters is the trooper's version, and the second image posted by Phil_B is the officer's version. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Of course, I should have looked in Robson! The first image posted by Glosters is the trooper's version, and the second image posted by Phil_B is the officer's version. Jonathan The MoD Pattern Room example in Robson is a fairly poor specimen. Their records showed they had another, complete with scabbard, but it must have disapeared when much, or all, of the Pattern Room items were temporarily stored in other places during WWII. The present MOLE example was purchased for the Pattern Room later. It appears 200 were made. 75 by RSAF Enfield, and the remainder by WILKINSON's and MOLE. Some examples from all these manufacturers have survived. However, there would appear to be no surviving scabbards. It is known that 75 scabbards were made for the ENFIELD examples...and these were made of leather with steel chape and locket. I have the specification details and drawings and a friend of mine had a very well made scabbard thus made up for his 1904 sword. So beware if a 1904 sword with scabbard ever comes on the market for sale!! For a little more information refer to my 2 part article in "Classic Arms and Militaria" on the 1908 sword and its experimentals. Part one..the experimental patterns..1903 to 1906...Vol.7.ISSUE.NO.2., March/April 2000. Part two, next issue, dealt with the resulting P1908 sword and its variations and use in service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 20 February , 2008 Share Posted 20 February , 2008 Sorry...minor error in my text!. The example from the Pattern Room was by ENFIELD, not MOLE. In fact, the MOLE examples are probably the rarest of the 3 manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakley499 Posted 21 February , 2008 Share Posted 21 February , 2008 Sorry...minor error in my text!. The example from the Pattern Room was by ENFIELD, not MOLE. In fact, the MOLE examples are probably the rarest of the 3 manufacturers. Hello Yes I was going to post that the Pattern Room example is marked EFD. In Moles detailed contract records I have there is no mention of making 1904 Experimental swords, in fact their records list the sword with the words WILKINSON beside it. (Mole listed all his contracts with Tender/Order prices even if he didn't get the order. The line for the 1904, as I said is blank with 'Wilkinson' written in. Mole does detail the 1906 experimental pattern costing 50/- . Mole quoted 17/6 for the scabbard which was too much and his tender was declines with the scabbards made at Enfield. There were TWO 1904's, 1904A and 1904B! I have both drawings and specs and am they differ in the steel specification. A was abandoned and according to the memo from Enfield, dated 9/5/1904 Wilkinsons were instrructed tto follow Spec B for their order.The scabbards were wood covered in kip. (Leather prepared from the skin of young or small cattle, intermediate in grade between calfskin and cowhide.) Hope that helps Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 21 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2008 Thanks to all for the additional wealth of detail on this sword, it's much appreciated. I hope to put together a post with pictures of the example I have located which I hope will be of some interest. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 21 February , 2008 Share Posted 21 February , 2008 Hello Yes I was going to post that the Pattern Room example is marked EFD. In Moles detailed contract records I have there is no mention of making 1904 Experimental swords, .... Robert Swordmaker, Interesting. You seem to have discovered a little more than I did re the 1904 experimentals!. ie..an A and B pattern. Regarding MOLE's involvement....when I was researching I discovered that the NAM had an example on loan to them from the SUSM stamped "MOLE". The only example I know of. Regarding the scabbards, there must h Hello Yes I was going to post that the Pattern Room example is marked EFD. In Moles detailed contract records I have there is no mention of making 1904 Experimental swords, in fact their records list the sword with the words WILKINSON beside it. (Mole listed all his contracts with Tender/Order prices even if he didn't get the order. The line for the 1904, as I said is blank with 'Wilkinson' written in. Mole does detail the 1906 experimental pattern costing 50/- . Mole quoted 17/6 for the scabbard which was too much and his tender was declines with the scabbards made at Enfield. There were TWO 1904's, 1904A and 1904B! I have both drawings and specs and am they differ in the steel specification. A was abandoned and according to the memo from Enfield, dated 9/5/1904 Wilkinsons were instrructed tto follow Spec B for their order.The scabbards were wood covered in kip. (Leather prepared from the skin of young or small cattle, intermediate in grade between calfskin and cowhide.) Hope that helps Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 21 February , 2008 Share Posted 21 February , 2008 Swordmaker, Interesting. You seem to have discovered a little more than I did re the 1904 experimentals!. ie..an A and B pattern. Regarding MOLE's involvement....when I was researching I discovered that the NAM had an example on loan to them from the SUSM stamped "MOLE". The only example I know of. Regarding the scabbards, there must have been at least two expentimental types? The the ones you refer to with a wood core and the one I describe, and have the specification for, with a blocked leather core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.G. Hopkins Posted 21 February , 2008 Share Posted 21 February , 2008 If 200 were made, does this mean they were send out to a regiment (or several regiments) for testing? Thank you, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 21 February , 2008 Share Posted 21 February , 2008 If 200 were made, does this mean they were send out to a regiment (or several regiments) for testing? Thank you, Jonathan Yes. The 200 were made for testing and trials. I do not have details of regiments supplied, nor feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakley499 Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 FROM CAVALRY TROOPER Interesting. You seem to have discovered a little more than I did re the 1904 experimentals!. ie..an A and B pattern. Regarding MOLE's involvement....when I was researching I discovered that the NAM had an example on loan to them from the SUSM stamped "MOLE". The only example I know of. Regarding the scabbards, there must have been at least two expentimental types? The the ones you refer to with a wood core and the one I describe, and have the specification for, with a blocked leather core. Yes all very convoluted and interesting. I would be interested in seeing the scabbard specification is you let me have a copy (I'll send you a copy of mine -ex Wilkinson Sword) email address is rwlatham@btinternet.com. The Mole example I know remember thanks to your jogging the grey cells. In those days and before in Victorian times, when tenders went out, the makers had to submit a sample with their prices/delivery etc and I think that is what the SUSM sword is, Mole's sample. I have delved deeper and it seems to have been that Mole had a large order for Indian Army on and decided to forgo the order for 125 swords of a new pattern. By the way, if it is YOU Mr M (You know who I am now!), I love your sword articles, great research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 As you gents seem very well informed on swords, could you possibly comment on the best (& cheapest!) way to check the date & buyer of a Wilkinson sword from its number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakley499 Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Feb 22 2008, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As you gents seem very well informed on swords, could you possibly comment on the best (& cheapest!) way to check the date & buyer of a Wilkinson sword from its number? The Wilkinson Sword records are in the Royal Armories Library BUT they were digitised by Richard Milner and are available for a small fee from http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/ If the Proof entry is blank (sometimes happens) there is no charge for giving you the date of manufacture/Purchase Hope that helps Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 Thanks, Robert. £16 a go? Seems a bit steep? Means it`s not worth checking out a sword until you`ve bought it. Then it might be bad news! In the good old days, Wilkinson supplied the information free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakley499 Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Feb 22 2008, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks, Robert. £16 a go? Seems a bit steep? Means it`s not worth checking out a sword until you`ve bought it. Then it might be bad news! In the good old days, Wilkinson supplied the information free. Ah Yes, I remember them well, and we used to supply a photocopy free as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.G. Hopkins Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Feb 22 2008, 06:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks, Robert. £16 a go? Seems a bit steep? Means it`s not worth checking out a sword until you`ve bought it. Then it might be bad news! In the good old days, Wilkinson supplied the information free. I am in the US, so that makes the fee ~32 USD! But in my experience it has been worth the money. A friend of mine who is quite a prolific collector of researchable swords of the Late Victorian period through the Great War will often have the serial number checked pre-purchase. Apparently this has worked-out quite well for him! If you want to learn the year during which your sword was made, you could try the "Makers" section at www.oldswords.com, or just post it here and I can look it up for you (there is an index in Harvey Withers' British Military Swords). Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 Swordmaker, Yes, I do realise from your e-mail address who you are, which makes me very pleased you have read my sword articles and found them interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEBELL Posted 22 February , 2008 Share Posted 22 February , 2008 Swordmaker, Yes, I do realise from your e-mail address who you are, which makes me very pleased you have read my sword articles and found them interesting. This message was somehow posted before I finished typing! I will try and e-mail you the information on the scabbard soon. Interesting information about the MOLE 1904 example presumably being a "one-off". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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