salesie Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 You don't have to worry about me on that score mate - it'd never occur to me to offend you with such a term! Your chum Gentleman George I knew that I could rely on you, George. However, shouldn't someone with Ms Brookes as their avatar be signing off as, Gentleman George (Rake of this parish)? Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 Very kind of you to say so, Old Sport - though alas I fear Old Roué of this Parish might be nearer the mark these days! The fragrant Ms Brookes has now received two mentions today - the other being in the Rant thread. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 I'm sure most of you have seen this, but if not.... The Schlieffen Plan Critique of a Myth by Gerhard Ritter with a Foreword by B H Liddell Hart Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 Very kind of you to say so, Old Sport - though alas I fear Old Roué of this Parish might be nearer the mark these days! The fragrant Ms Brookes has now received two mentions today - the other being in the Rant thread. George Fragrant eh George. Sniffing around the ladies again I see. It will be the death of you young man. By the way, wrote a long reply on Facebook on your Haig page the other evening and the damn thing froze and I lost it. couldn't be bothered to type it all again - will do soon. A throw away line about Lloyd George I think it was that made me write. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 One for Jim Der Schlieffen-Plan flickr Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 Thanks Mike but how do you get a Google book from the Archive - I never seem to succeed. And where did you find the other one? I can't believe it comes up on the first page of Google when you type Schliefen Plan. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salesie Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 ...though alas I fear Old Roué of this Parish might be nearer the mark these days! George I know the feeling, mucker - it's only eleven on a Friday night and I'm about to climb the stairs and gladly go to bed (to sleep). I see that Mike has mentioned an old favourite of yours i.e. Mr Liddell-Hart, whose mention has prompted me to ask when will that tome of yours be appearing in public? Cheers-salesie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 Thanks Mike but how do you get a Google book from the Archive - I never seem to succeed. And where did you find the other one? I can't believe it comes up on the first page of Google when you type Schliefen Plan. Jim Hi Jim. I can't remember how I got the pdf, just googling. The German book is from archive.org, just enter schlieffen in the search box. If I remember where I found the pdf i will post it. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 5 August , 2011 Share Posted 5 August , 2011 Hi Jim. I can't remember how I got the pdf, just googling. The German book is from archive.org, just enter schlieffen in the search box. If I remember where I found the pdf i will post it. Cheers Mike What I mean Mike is that the book in Archive.org only wants to be read online or sends you to Google books. The epub and kindle versions don't work. Reading a German book in Gothic script is bad enough when it's a real book, on the Archive.org online reader it is a nightmare! I usually get them onto my Kindle and then I can read them, albeit slowly! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 What I mean Mike is that the book in Archive.org only wants to be read online or sends you to Google books. The epub and kindle versions don't work. Reading a German book in Gothic script is bad enough when it's a real book, on the Archive.org online reader it is a nightmare! I usually get them onto my Kindle and then I can read them, albeit slowly! Jim Morning Jim. I don't have a kindle, so am not sure why there should be a problem with the kindle version. Their only seems to be one version on archive .org, and it's a very poor scan. I can imagine trying to read it. Maybe some other pals might try download the kindle version. archive .org FORUM Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 6 August , 2011 Admin Share Posted 6 August , 2011 JIm Click on the All Files: HTTP option at the bottom. This gives you a directory listing and you can right click and Save As from there for a PDF. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 Fragrant eh George. Sniffing around the ladies again I see. It will be the death of you young man. You may say that - I couldn't possibly comment! By the way, wrote a long reply on Facebook on your Haig page the other evening and the damn thing froze and I lost it. couldn't be bothered to type it all again - will do soon. A throw away line about Lloyd George I think it was that made me write. Look forward to reading that, Jim - I think DLG has had a couple of mentions on the Haig page recently, so will be interested to see what you've picked up on. Salesie - sometime in the autumn I hope, chum! By the way, on Liddell Hart and von Schlieffen, here's an extract from a letter to Liddell Hart written in 1958 by one of the great German commanders of the second unpleasantness, von Manstein: Schlieffen's theories were much studied in the German Army between the wars and had great influence on the strategical and tactical thinking. The idea to outflank and enclose the enemy governed the German strategy and tactics. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 6 August , 2011 Share Posted 6 August , 2011 JIm Click on the All Files: HTTP option at the bottom. This gives you a directory listing and you can right click and Save As from there for a PDF. Glen Thanks Glen. I am so used to just downloading the pdf and kindle versions I never thought to look at the http list. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelob Posted 13 August , 2011 Share Posted 13 August , 2011 Hew Strachan has a good bit on this in 'To Arms' and though detailed is very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 13 August , 2011 Share Posted 13 August , 2011 Just found this interesting thread. In the last several months I have attended two lectures by Zuber and talked with him after each one; he is very energetic and enthusiastic, quite feisty if not combatative, and does not seem to mind one bit that German Army historians do not seem to like his line of research and findings at all. Before attending his talks I read one of his books and have started another, but largely for my own purposes. My particular interest is not in the Schlieffen Plan per se but in German military planning as it involved the super-heavy siege guns that the Germans and Austrians developed before the war. So I have only half-followed the tangled arguements on this topic, but still find them quite interesting. I have not read the arguements of his competitors, if that is the right phrase, so I can't come to a reasoned position myself, but I would not quickly discard his findings. But he certainly has strongly-held positions. I plan to obtain Ritter soon. Much of his ingrained enthusiasm for the German military (if not for German Army historians) probably flows from his serving in the staff of the 12. Panzer=Division for three years, despite being a US officer, which he found to be an exceptional and very enlightening military experience. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 14 August , 2011 Share Posted 14 August , 2011 Although I have been critical of Zuber, and remain so, I have been at pains to stress that the results of his research could be very useful. It is the results of his analysis which I reject. I am also less than enamoured of his penchant for sensationalist titles to his books. Perhaps that ought to be laid at the door of his publisher but Zuber shows no signs of embarrassment. As well as serving alongside the German Army, I believe he studied in Germany, did he not? I seem to remember him acknowledging German professors in his book on the Battles of the Frontiers. The book is not to hand at the moment so I will have to offer up that hostage to fortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 14 August , 2011 Share Posted 14 August , 2011 Good afternoon, Just to reinforce what Tom says, I know that Zuber "walked" many of the battlefields of the "Frontiers" for his research into that book and spoke to several local historians (as well as his German research). it is more his resultant opinions with which I, and those same local historians, take issue with........but he does stimulate debate ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmckay395 Posted 14 August , 2011 Share Posted 14 August , 2011 This has been a fascinating thread and I've been scanning Zuber's books ITSP and TRGWP on amazon. Could anyone shed light onto the difference between the two books besides £70, is the cheaper book a more recent and concise version of the original? or are there more significant differences? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S. Posted 16 August , 2011 Share Posted 16 August , 2011 Which "German Army historians" are we talking about here? The only academic critics that I'm aware of are left-wing historians of German militarism. Just found this interesting thread. In the last several months I have attended two lectures by Zuber and talked with him after each one; he is very energetic and enthusiastic, quite feisty if not combatative, and does not seem to mind one bit that German Army historians do not seem to like his line of research and findings at all. Before attending his talks I read one of his books and have started another, but largely for my own purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 16 August , 2011 Share Posted 16 August , 2011 For one, read; Holger Herwig, "Germany and the Short War Illusion: Toward a New Interpretation," in Journal of Military History, 66 (July 2002). Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 16 August , 2011 Share Posted 16 August , 2011 This has been a fascinating thread and I've been scanning Zuber's books ITSP and TRGWP on amazon. Could anyone shed light onto the difference between the two books besides £70, is the cheaper book a more recent and concise version of the original? or are there more significant differences? Mark TRGWP's case appears to be based on Zuber's analysis of a document "BA-MA RH 61/v.96", apparently not available before 2002; Zuber goes into great detail on how he believes the document and its notations show that the actual German war evolved from the 1890s to 1914 from Schlieffen's alleged "Master Plan" - he maintains there were multiple Schlieffen scenarios rather than any single "master plan" - into Moltke's actual plan of 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 17 August , 2011 Share Posted 17 August , 2011 There is a book, " A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff 1807 - 1945 ". by Col. T.N. Dupuy. Despite his French sounding name, Dupuy was an American military analyst. One of the chapters of the book is devoted to the Schlieffen Plan and the author also makes the point that there were several plans, from 1894 right through until 1912 or so. The plan evolved from that of Von Moltke the elder/ Waldersee as inherited by von Schlieffen, to the memorandum bequeathed to von Moltke the Younger, his successor. Dupuy does not however go as far as Zuber and declare that there was no plan. Dupuy's analysis is interesting and he differs from Ritter and Liddel Hart in his conclusions. Interesting read but I'm not sure I would go as far as recommend it except to the real enthusiast. It covers a lot of background not widely available to the non-German reader. My main point is that Zuber is not original in his thesis and not even the first American military analyst to propose it. He does however, present a lot of data to back his view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 It would be great if Mr Zuber had the opportunity to respond to criticisms of his work here... anybody in contact with him ? Rod, I can steer him this way. I'm not sure he'll respond, but I'll send him the link. Paul Edit: Link sent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 If you can read German, Der Schlieffenplan: Analysen und Dokumente (Paderborn: Schöningh, 2006), by Ehlert and others is worth a look. It's a collection of the various debates, as well as a large amount of materials related to "the Plan." Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 20 August , 2011 Share Posted 20 August , 2011 The book referred to by Paul comprises contributions to a special seminar held at the Bundeswehr Military History Office in response to the publication of Inventing the Schlieffen Plan. The scope was wider than the book itself, including information about mobilisation and deployment schemes of other belligerants. Zuber was present, defending himself robustly, but some very forceful countervailing arguments were presented in the papers, or during debate. I attended the seminar, having gone through Zuber's book first. I was not and am not convinced by his argument, except in the very narrow sense that the plan with which the German army went to war was Moltke's (How could it not be?). However, in all its essentials, the eventual plan reflected the rabbit which Schlieffen appeared to have conjured out of his hat and which seemed to offer a way out of the German strategic two-front war dilemma. I see a clear continuity of general thinking and the work certainly enabled the army to fight its corner for resources in the face of the massive effort which went into trying to make the Tirpitz Plan reality during the early years of the 20thC. Terry Zuber kindly signed my book and inscribed it as, 'At the battle of Potsdam!' Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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