yperite or mustard gas

[Aurel Sercu]

A bit embarrassed, since I have to ask a question related to Ypres to which I (and Form member Robert M., both from Ypres) do not know the answer to.

Yperite or mustard gas was named after Ypres, where reportedly it was used for the first time. Our information is that this was "on 12-13 July 1917, between Wieltje (= north of Ypres) and Hooge (= east of Ypres)".

We would like

1. to have confirmation of this date

2. to hear where exactly this first mustard/yperite gas attack took place (Wieltje, Potyze, Railway wood, Bellewaarde ... ?)

As to #1 : somehow I remember reading somewhere else that the first use indeed was in July 1917. And on the internet I found that the first use was in September 1917, and ... at the Russian front !

Also this : that the British troops did not use it until 14 months after the first German use in July 1917. (Which would mean : September 1918.) Is this correct ?

Shamefaced, for not knowing the answer to this yperite question in Ypres...

Aurel

P.S. Maybe I could find the answer in J. Coop, "The Story of the 55th West Lancashire Division" (the division that suffered the yperite attack on 12-13 June 1917), but I don't have access to it until next week.

[Geoff Parker]

Aurel

Will have a look for you this evening as I have a few books on gas warfare

and see if anything specific. I also have the 55th Div history but its quite a

small book so may not go into any detail.

Geoff

[j.r.f]

PALS

On the same subject.does antbody know exactly what mustard gas is,ie chemical formula etc.

JUST AS AN ASIDE THE MERCHANT VENTURERS TECHNICAL COLLEGE IN BRISTOL WERE STILL DOING WORK ON MUSTARD GAS IN WW2.

cheers.

john.

[AOK4]

Hello Aurel,

It was the Gruppe Ypern (front between Menin Road and Langemark app.) that performed the first attack with Gelbkreuz on the night of the 13th July 1917. Officially it is called 2,2-Dichlordiethylsulfide and was developped by W. Lommel and Wilhelm Steinkopf in early 1916 and therefore called 'Lost'. 50.000 shells with Gelbkreuz were fired, meaning 125 tons of Yperite.

The first bombardment was from 22.10 to 22.30 hrs, the second from 00.30 to 00.50 and the third from 01.55 to 02.20.

Apparently the British were unaware that the Germans were shooting with gas, because there were no clouds or fog. It was only after a few hours that the first symptoms were to be seen. It was not until 16th July that the first dud was found and examined by the British.

Source: Olaf Groehler, Der lautlose Tod. Berlin, 1978.

Regards,

Jan

[Aurel Sercu]

Geoff,

I knew you would reply ! I knew !

Only ... I had guessed : In the first 24 hours. And I was wrong. Well, I was right. For your reply came after 6 minutes ! Thanks

Jan,

Thanks for the info. Useful. Just this : should your source mention the exact location... Or maybe it was not somewhere "between" Wieltje and Hooghe, but on a front from Wieltje to Hooghe ?

(You may have seen that I have just edited my posting. I had written 12-13 June 1917 first. I have altered it into the correct 12-13 July 1917.)

Aurel

[AOK4]

Hello,

I checked the history of the 55th Division, but there's nothing about the gas attack in it...

From what I read in the book, the gas attack appears to have been performed on the front of the Gruppe from Langemark to the Menin Road.

Jan

[Jacky Platteeuw]

According the book "Gas" the Story of the Special Brigade by Major General CH Foulkes the British troops used for the 1st time "Yellow Cross' gas on 26th september 1918 on the Forth Army front. I leave this to the specialists were that front was but I suppose around Epehy could be very close.

Jacky

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Jacky and Jan.

Maybe I will check in some Regimental Histories of the bns. that were in the 55th Division at the time.

Aurel

[Geoff Parker]

Aurel

Mustard Gas first used 12-13th July 1917. Called Yperite by the French because

it was first used at Ypres. The Gas attack seems to have been in response to the

Allied build up taking place in preparation for the beginning of 3rd Ypres. Two

divisions known to have been affected 15th Scottish (according to Foulkes) and 55th West Lancs.

The 55th Div history makes no mention of the attack and I am still waiting for a

copy of the 15th Scottish. However I looked through the regimental histories for

those units within the above divisions and the only reference I could find was in

the Kings Regiment. This stated that the 8th Bn, 164th Bde, 55th Div suffered 10

men gassed on 13th July in the Potijze Trenches. However in another source there

are two accounts of Scots being gassed. 6th Camerons, 45th Bde, 15th Scottish and

7th Camerons, 44th Bde, 15th Div. One account states that the gas was released

at 0800 on 13th July. The other states that although the gas attacked the skin, the

Jocks suffered no higher percentage of casualties than trousered regiments. In fact

apparently the movement of the kilt help disperse the gas away from the exposed

skin. A further accounts states that the enemy gas shells were fired at British

artillery concentrations and that the total number of casualties was 50-60 men.

I don't know the exact location of these two divisions on 12-13th July as most

maps show their positions for the actual attack on 31st July. But I would assume

they were in the same location.

The first use of mustard gas by the British was on 26th September 1918 at the

Battle of St.Quetin. 18pdr and 6-inch shells being used. The British also fired a

number of German Yellow Cross shells using captured guns. I don't know why

the delay in the Allies using mustard gas although I know there was a problem

with the development of 18pdr gas shells and this round only ever contained

mustard gas. According to one source, the British had actually experimented with

mustard gas during the summer of 1916 but decided against development,

although because of these tests it enable them to identify the chemical used from

a dud Yellow Cross shell.

Sorry I couldn't give you any more information, Aurel. If I dig up any further info I

will let you know, hopefully I should have a copy of the 15th Scottish history by

the end of the month.

John

Mustard gas is Dichlorodiethylsulfide and the chemical formula is either

(CH2 C1CH2 CH2)2S or (C1CH2 CH2)2S as both are given in the book.

Known as Beta-Beta-Dichlorodiethylsulfide and coded by the military as

BB (beta-beta) or HS (Hun stuff).

Geoff

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Geoff.

Interesting stuff.

I assume the mustard gas attack took place on a wide front (maybe from Wieltje to Hooge, i.e. including the Potyze trenches). Should you find reference to the exact location in the history of the 15th Scottish Div. (it's not not in the Ypres Doc. Centre), please let us know if not too much trouble...

Aurel

[Adam Harland]

The 15th div history does make reference to the gas attack on 12/13th...quoting from the 15th div GS diary " At night, between 10pm and 1am, between 3000 and 4000 gas shells were fired against battery positions, causing many casualties which affested the eyes and stomach" the casualties ' ran into hundreds, mostly artillerymen.

It was, of course, something of an irony as the Divisional command had just been assumed by Gen Thuillier, who had been promoted from director of gas warfare!

The german view of mustard gas is given clearly by Max Hoffman, Chief of staff on the eastern front, with the view of Fritz Haber that the gas was a war winner for a year, by which stage the allies would have a similar agent. Hoffman notes that Haber was wrong ' our opponenets did not suceed in imitating the Yellow Cross in a year, but in 16 months. The danger then was that ' protective measures - such as macintoshes and a change of two or three uniforms - we should be unable to supply, as we should not have the necessary materials. Consequently the enemy would not even need to attack: he would simply gas us out of each position' p175 VolII

Hoffman even sees the motivation for the great 1918 western offensive as being two pronged. the first was the arrival of the Americans, and the second was ' the fear our enemies would manage to produce our new poison gas' p337

[Malcolm]

The 15th Division account goes on to describe the retaliation...........numerous discharges of ' White Star ' gas were made by Livens projector during the second half of July.

White Star is a mixure of chlorine gas and phosgene gas.

Aye

Malcolm

[Robert Dunlop]

Hoffman even sees the motivation for the great 1918 western offensive as being two pronged. the first was the arrival of the Americans, and the second was ' the fear our enemies would manage to produce our new poison gas' p337

An interesting perspective. Foulkes, who commanded the Special Brigade, makes frequent mention of the degree to which the Germans played down or appeared to suppress information about gas casualties. The impact of Livens projector attacks might well have fuelled this fear at the High Command level, if the evidence and line of argumentation from Foulkes is to be believed.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Robert, Malcolm and Adam.

Interesting also the mention of White Star. I had never heard of it ; neither did I know that it was used with Livens Projectors. Actually we have found many (dozens) of Livens Projectors (both the projectiles and the tubes) near Yorkshire Trench (Boezinge). I had always assumed that they contained only phosgene. But then, we didn't "test" them... We want them to be removed as fast as possible by the Bomb Disposal Unit (for fear that they would leak when surfacing...)

Aurel

[Malcolm]

I believe White Star was 40% chlorine, 60% Phosgene. It was reckoned to kill its victims in 48 hours. A hellish way to die.

Aye

Malcolm

[Steve Bramley]

The link below leads to some quite interesting info'. Good cartoon as well!

Gas

Steve.