Lewis Gun accident

[ZackNZ]

Hi there

I’m doing some research into a tragic accident in 1916 in which a live round was used to ‘stup the gun’ leading to the injury of two soldiers and the death of one.

The President of the Court of Enquiry found that this accident was an “unfortunate occurrence entirely due to misadventure. I have given instructions that in future only dummy cartridges be used for initial instructional lectures.”

Pardon my ignorance but does any pal know what “stupping the gun” is all about and why would a live round had been used instead of a dummy?

Zack

[Andrew Upton]

Hi there

I’m doing some research into a tragic accident in 1916 in which a live round was used to ‘stup the gun’ leading to the injury of two soldiers and the death of one.

The President of the Court of Enquiry found that this accident was an “unfortunate occurrence entirely due to misadventure. I have given instructions that in future only dummy cartridges be used for initial instructional lectures.”

Pardon my ignorance but does any pal know what “stupping the gun” is all about and why would a live round had been used instead of a dummy?

Zack

Are you sure it's not "stop" the gun? - ie, they were training the troops in the various stoppages that could occur, and they used a live round instead for whatever reason (convenience perhaps, or in error?).

Another possibility - is the word possibly "strip", since the Lewis Gun can be field stripped with nothing more than a normal .303 round?

[TonyE]

I would have thought it was "strip" the gun, but "stop" is also a possibility. Given the context quoted I would favour "strip".

Regards

tonyE

[truthergw]

Never handled a Lewis Gun. Any suggestions as to how using a live round instead of a dummy, would kill one and injure two others?

I don't suppose it could be " setup " the gun?

[squirrel]

Forgetting to clear the breech before doing anything else.

[ian turner]

Never handled a Lewis Gun. Any suggestions as to how using a live round instead of a dummy, would kill one and injure two others?

I don't suppose it could be " setup " the gun?

Irrespective of whatever the live round was used for, if it was accidentally detonated (firing cap somehow impacted/punctured) then a live round being set off/ricocheting/etc could well cause casualties, especially if in a confined space. I think even only just the cap detonating could cause a serious wound to a hand.

Ian

[ZackNZ]

Correct Ian - the accident actually happened in a room!

Apparently the casing at the end of the gun was being disassembled by one person when the firing of the gun caused the casing to shatter thus also injuring two men. The person killed was actually hit by the bullet. And the word is "stup" or "stupping." Both words are included in the court of enquiry - hence my question.

Zack

[Captain Stoddy]

Zack,

I have just come across a similar accident, where a live round was used to demonstrate stripping the gun, with one fatality. Did you resolve anything way back in 2008?

Niall

[Coldstreamer]

What coincidence, I stumbled across a paper report of a coldstreamer killed in this way only the other day

[Special Artist]

A few days ago I listened to an identical story related in an old interview by the officer doing the demonstration - I think it was one of the IWM voices of the first world war podcasts. He said he was simply using the ammunition left by previous demonstrators, and I think he said it was a corporal who was shot and killed

[Dave1418]

Hi

it could be a number of things,

using live rounds instead of drill rounds when conducting demonstration/drills. A jammed round which was not extracted and cooked off in the barrel if the weapon was hot and was being stripped to get it out. Incorrectly head spaced round which when fired created a breach explosion or incorrect ammunition with not enough free bore before the rifling which would increase the breach pressure etc.

regards

Dave

[Ian Riley]

Some stoppage drills could only be practised with rounds in the gun. By the end of 1916 it appears that orders had been issued that only cartridges emptied of cordite and with wooden bullets in place were to be used for stoppage drills and practice. Previously it would appear that a live round could be used, emptied of cordite and the original bullet replaced. (Court of enquiry into fatal shooting during training in 55th Division on 11th December 1916 in Ypres.

[Dave1418]

Hi

For 'Drill' rounds to be used like this not only would the propellant have to be removed but also the primer would have to be removed revealing the anvil underneath. Alater natively the primer could be fired off. If not the round may still be fired upon the detonation of the primer alone. Drill rounds with wooden heads and the primer removed revealing the anvil with several holes drilled into the side of the case are the ones usually found. I have seen examples with red and blue coloured heads.

Regards

Dave

[Blackblue]

I would be pretty confident the word is 'strip'.

Rgds

Tim D

[Blackblue]

Fascinating reading.....nothing on accidents.....

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/Lewis/The%20Complete%20Lewis%20Gunner.pdf

Rgds

Tim ad

[UKAIF]

In Port Douglas, Qld, recently I came across 3563 Pte Harold Andreassen, 25th Btn AIF buried in Durrington Cemetery, Wiltshire, UK, who had his right hand severed during Lewis Gun training - accidents certainly did happen.

[Chasemuseum]

A round needs to be in the chamber to be a lethal hazard. If a cartridge is detonated outside a weapon, the brass casing tears apart generating some dangerous splinters but one would be very unlikely to be seriously injured other than eye injuries.

If a round is in the chamber and initiated without the bolt locked, this is exceptionally dangerous as not only will the bullet leaving the barrel be potentially lethal, but the rear of the weapon will have the bolt come flying out at a potentially lethal speed. This is why misfire drills are to leave the weapon pointing down range for at least 30 seconds (some range officers will require 2 minutes) before opening the weapon and discarding the miss fired round. To have a hang fire go off during this safety period is most unnerving.

I would expect that the reference is to training for stoppage drills, although the dual reference to "stup" the gun in the inquest report suggests that this was a deliberate use of this word which has since become archaic.

Cheers

RT

[Blackblue]

I would be surprised if such a word permanently disappeared and was never mentioned again at least somewhere. Perhaps the OP can give us a steer on the original documents and we can see for ourselves what it might say. Might it be 'setup' instead of 'strip'?

[Dave1418]

If a round is in the chamber and initiated without the bolt locked, this is exceptionally dangerous as not only will the bullet leaving the barrel be potentially lethal, but the rear of the weapon will have the bolt come flying out at a potentially lethal speed. This is why misfire drills are to leave the weapon pointing down range for at least 30 seconds (some range officers will require 2 minutes) before opening the weapon and discarding the miss fired round. To have a hang fire go off during this safety period is most unnerving.

There are a number of weapons designed to use advance primary ignition which is where the primer is struck prior to it being fully in battery(the bolt fully closed) usually on machine guns. However for it to work correctly the weapon has to be head space gauged correctly.

Stoppage drills can be either immediate action or deliberate depending upon the type of stoppage.

regards

[charlie962]

My grandfather made detailed neatly-handwritten notes of lectures he attended at the Lewis Machine Gun School, Burton Court, Chelsea given by a Cpl Fisk, Grenadier Guards in March 1918.

No mention of accidents. But the word stripping can easily be misread as stupping. (edit see below) I'm sure the reference in the old thread was a transcription error

He also notes that 'all stripping can be done with the point of a bullet, except the barrel mouthpiece and gas chamber for which there is a special tool'.

He was lucky enough to be too old to go overseas (or I might not be here to write this?)

Edited 3 September , 2015 by charlie962