kings liverpool reg

[doedoe]

hello to all

hoping somebody can help with a photograph of the 4th extra batt Kings Lverpool Reg 1914/5, I am researching a Michael Henry McDonough 10909 Pte, he died France 1915 ,I have photos of his grave in Bethune Town cem ,his service record but do not have a photo of him , have tried all the usual sites but no joy has any one any suggestions

thank you

Blondie

[pbrydon]

According to "Soldiers Died " he was born and enlisted in Liverpool ( as you possibily already know )

There might be an orbituary with a picture in a local newpaper of the time,that the only suggestion I can make.

P.B.

[doedoe]

According to "Soldiers Died " he was born and enlisted in Liverpool ( as you possibily already know )

There might be an orbituary with a picture in a local newpaper of the time,that the only suggestion I can make.

P.B.

thanks PB

will try local papers for a few weeks after his death never know something might turn up , also can you tell me how can I find out were he was in the TA and if they have kept any records .

thank you Doreen

[daggers]

The 4th Bn KLR were not Territorials but Extra Reserve, formerly known as Militia. The Long Long Trail site gives this about 4th:

"4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion:

August 1914 : in Seaforth, Liverpool. Landed at (le) Havre, 6 March 1915.

6 March 1915 : attached to Sirhind Brigade, Lahore Division of Indian Army.

10 November 1915 : transferred to 137th Brigade, 46th Division.

3 December 1915 : transferred to 56th and 58th Brigades, 19th Division.

27 February 1916 : transferred to 98th Brigade, 33rd Division."

There are several experts on The Kings on this Forum and one might be able to help with a picture or more details.

Daggers

[doedoe]

The 4th Bn KLR were not Territorials but Extra Reserve, formerly known as Militia. The Long Long Trail site gives this about 4th:

"4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion:

August 1914 : in Seaforth, Liverpool. Landed at (le) Havre, 6 March 1915.

6 March 1915 : attached to Sirhind Brigade, Lahore Division of Indian Army.

10 November 1915 : transferred to 137th Brigade, 46th Division.

3 December 1915 : transferred to 56th and 58th Brigades, 19th Division.

27 February 1916 : transferred to 98th Brigade, 33rd Division."

There are several experts on The Kings on this Forum and one might be able to help with a picture or more details.

Daggers

Daggers

thank you so much for your reply ,Michael Henry died of wounds in May 1915 will keep watching with high hopes

Doreen

[jonthemon]

hello to all

hoping somebody can help with a photograph of the 4th extra batt Kings Lverpool Reg 1914/5, I am researching a Michael Henry McDonough 10909 Pte, he died France 1915 ,I have photos of his grave in Bethune Town cem ,his service record but do not have a photo of him , have tried all the usual sites but no joy has any one any suggestions

thank you

Blondie

michael mcdonagh 10909 must have known my grandad john lovatt 10918who died on the 27 april 1915.Have you any more information on the klr reserve in april 1915

[daggers]

John Lovatt is remembered on the Menin Gate Memorial to the Missing at Ypres. Here is the CWGC detail in case you do not have it. I think you will have to look for a war diary of 4th Battalion JLR at the National Archives, or one of the regimental histories to find out what was going on at the time of his death. You may find it better to start a new thread, including '4th Battalion KLR', and asking if anyone has a copy of the relevant books.

Name: LOVATT, JOHN

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: The King's (Liverpool Regiment)

Unit Text: 4th Bn.

Age: 29

Date of Death: 27/04/1915

Service No: 10918

Additional information: Husband of Florrie Hill (formedy Lovatt), of 64, Oldbury Rd., Greets Green, West Bromwich.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 4 and 6.

D

[Promenade]

Hi,

I noticed your post so prepared the following which I hope will be of interest to you. If you have additional information I would be pleased to hear from you as I could not isolate him on any census returns. I have nothing else on John.

All that I have on Pte McDonough is that he is commemorated on the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board War Memorial in Liverpool.

Please note that this if anyone uses information from this post I would be grateful if it could be credited to the Museum of Liverpool.

Regards

Promenade

PRIVATE JOHN LOVATT

4th Battalion King's (Liverpool) Regt

Died of wounds on 27 April 1915

John Lovatt, who was born about 1886 in Wolverhampton, married Florence Powell in Oldham in 1907. He enlisted in Oldham in August/September 1914 as No 10918 and was posted to the 4th Battalion King's (Liverpool) Regt. At the time he enlisted he was living at 5 Flora St Busk, Oldham. After a period of training John crossed to France with his Battalion on 4 March 1915. It is almost certain that he was wounded and died on 27 April 1915 at the Battle of St Julien - three other men are listed as died of wounds on 27 April and all were wounded on this date and commemorated on the Menin Gate memorial. His widow married Thomas Hill in West Bromwich late in 1918.JOhn has no known grave being commemorated on the walls of the Menin Gate Memorial in Belgium.

KILLED/WOUNDED AT THE BATTLE OF ST. JULIEN: 24TH APRIL‑4TH MAY 1915

CALONNE

20-21/4/15

Nothing unusual occurred.

22/4/15

Battalion practiced Trench Attack at ST. FLORIS.

23/4/15

Battalion moved with Brigade to VIEILLE CHAPELLE.

VIELLE CHAPELLE

24/4/15

The Brigade marched from billets at 12 noon and marched to ESTAIRES - NEUF BERQUIN - VIEUX BERQUIN - OULTERSTENE - METEREN - BERTHEN billeting late at night at the latter place.

BERTHEN

25/4/15

Moved early morning across BELGIAN FRONTIER to OUDERDOM.

OUDERDOM

26/4/15

Occupied "hutments" until morning of 26/4/15 when the brigade marched through VLAMERTINGHE and YPRES to ST JEAN where the Brigade formed the reserve to JULLUNDUR and FEROZEPORE brigades in an attack on German position N.E. of ST JEAN. The Battalion was heavily shelled on the march through YPRES and at ST JEAN 2nd LIEUT. F.C. LYDDEN, Indian Army (Attached) wounded - he died of wounds the next day. 2nd LIEUT. L.C. SODEN wounded, also 10 other ranks killed and wounded. Battalion moved to LA BRIQUE about 5:00 p.m. and bivouacked moving again at 3:00 a.m. 27-4-15 to trenches in fields N.E. of ST JEAN (Copy of operation order marked "A".)

27/4/15

At 12 noon the Battalion formed up for attack and assaulted German position in support of 1/4th GURKHA RIFLES. The Battalion suffered severely losing 2nd LIEUT. R.A. LLOYD killed, CAPT. COLTART, 2nd LIEUTS. JACKSON, MELLY, BRIGGS, SIMMANCE, REID, MAPPLEBECK wounded and 2nd LIEUT. McCONKEY slightly wounded (fit for duty). Approximately 374 other ranks killed, wounded and missing. The Battalion moved back to morning billets at dusk and remained there for the night. Although the attack was not carried out, the object was obtained i.e. occupying enemy’s attention, for benefit of plans of 2nd ARMY.

The following is a transcript from the Regimental History of the action by the 4th Battalion:-

THE BATTLE OF ST. JULIEN: 24TH APRIL‑4TH MAY

Early on the morning of 23rd April, Sir John French visited General Foch and was told by the latter that it was his intention to make good the original line and regain the trenches which the French Turcos had lost. He asked Sir John to hold on to his present position, assuring the British Commander-in‑Chief that the original line would be re‑established in a few days. This Sir John agreed to do, but stipulated that if the position was not re‑established within a reasonable time, he could not allow his troops to remain in so exposed a position as that which the action of the previous twenty‑four hours had compelled them to occupy.

The situation east of the Ypres Canal - the Yser - was indeed critical. Troops in reserve were hurried forward and flung into the line wherever they were needed most. Divisions and brigades became disorganised, split up and intermingled; the great thing was to maintain the line. One Brigadier alone controlled parts of battalions from six different divisions.

Amongst the troops ordered up to Ypres was the Lahore Division, then in the Vieille Chapelle area, south-west of Armentières, the Sirhind Brigade (containing the 4th King's Regiment) being then in reserve billeted in Calonne.

From the 10th to 23rd April, the 4th Battalion remained billeted in Calonne, training hard and practising the attack. But on the latter date a move was made to Vieille Chapelle, where the Sirhind Brigade was due to relieve the Garhwal Brigade of the Meerut Division. Orders had, however, been received for the Lahore Division to move up to Ypres, and on the 24th the Sirhind Brigade marched to Berthen via Estaires, Neuf Berquin, Vieux Berquin, Outtersteene and Meteren. The brigade reached Berthen late that night, but early next morning was again on the road to Ouderdom, where "hutments" were occupied until the morning of 26th.

The other two brigades of the Lahore Division, i.e., Jullundur and Ferozepore, were already in the line, the former in the fields near Wieltje, with the Ferozepore Brigade on the left. The Sirhind Brigade, pushing on through Vlamertinghe and Ypres, took up reserve positions south‑east of St. Jean. While marching through Ypres and along the St. Jean road, the troops were shelled heavily, and Second‑Lieut. F. S. Lydden (Indian Army), attached to the 4th King's, was wounded, dying of his wounds the next day. Another officer - Second‑Lieut. L. C. Soden - was also wounded, while the losses in other ranks were ten killed and wounded.

About 5 p.m. that evening the King's moved to La Brique and bivouacked. Here several uncomfortable hours were spent until 3 a.m. on 27th, when the battalion again moved forward to a line of trenches in fields north‑east of St. Jean.

On the previous day the Jullundur and Ferozepore Brigades, in conjunction with troops on the right, had succeeded in pushing the enemy back some little distance towards the north, but again the continual employment of asphyxiating gas by the enemy made further progress impossible. A gallant attack by Northumbrian troops on St. Julien succeeded for a time in occupying the southern portion of that village, but they were driven out by gas and fell back to a line a short distance southwards. On the south‑eastern side of the Salient no attacks were made by, or on, the enemy, though hostile artillery fire was extremely heavy and casualties were severe.

On the 27th April, at 3 a.m., the Sirhind Brigade took over the front line from the Jullundur and Ferozepore Brigades, the latter withdrawing to La Brique. The line held by the foremost unit (H.L.I. - Highland Light Infantry) of the Sirhind Brigade was on the right of Turco Farm, then the right of the French line. Only one company of the H.L.I. held the forward trenches, which were about 100 yards from, and parallel with, the German line. Three more companies were in support with the 15th Sikhs on their left, and about 300 yards behind the supports were the remaining units of the Brigade, i.e., 4th King's Regiment, 1/1st and 1/4th Gurkhas.

Orders had been received that at 1.30 p.m. on 27th, the French Moroccans, on the left of the Lahore Division, would attack the enemy. At 12.30 p.m. the artillery bombardment was to begin, when the Ferozepore Brigade (then lying in hastily‑prepared trenches between La Brique and St. Jean) would at once move forward so as to arrive in line with (and on the right of) the Sirhind Brigade at 1.15 p.m., at which time the guns would lift to the enemy's second line.

Of the Sirhind Brigade the 1/4th Gurkhas, on the right, and the 1/1st Gurkhas, on the left, were to launch the attack; the 4th King's Regiment supported the 1/4th Gurkhas and the H.L.I., and Sikhs the 1/1st Gurkhas.

As soon as the bombardment started the Brigadier of the Sirhind Brigade, fearing to lose the artillery support by waiting for the Ferozepore Brigade, ordered his troops to advance. As the gallant fellows ascended the ridge and advanced across it, severe frontal cross‑fire from rifles and machine guns and enfilade fire swept their ranks. Every likely spot over which the attackers would advance had been accurately registered by the enemy's guns; hedges and ditches likely to afford cover had been marked down, and here the storm of shell and bullets was heaviest.

Three British officers and about thirty men of the 1/4th Gurkhas succeeded in reaching a large farm at the bottom of the slope, where they held on under a galling fire, but it was about 4p.m. before the remainder of the battalion joined them. At that hour, seeing that the Gurkhas were held up, Lieut.‑Colonel J. W. Allen, commanding 4th King's Regiment, decided to reinforce them. "The King's, splendidly led by their officers, advanced by short rushes, with the enemy pumping lead into them and men falling in heaps. A number, under Major E. M. Beall, succeeded in getting to within two hundred yards of the enemy's line, but it was evident that the wire in front of the German trench was untouched, and it was impossible to push on further. This spirited dash enabled a number of the 1/4th Gurkhas to join the small party which was holding on to the farm.

"The 4th King's had not been long in showing their quality, for the battalion had only landed in France during the preceding month and had already been present at Neuve Chapelle."1

The story of this attack in the Battalion Diary of the 4th King's is not illuminating. It merely states that "at 12 noon the battalion formed up for the attack and assaulted the German positions, in support of 1/4th Gurkha Rifles.

The battalion suffered severely, losing Second‑Lieut. R. A. Lloyd, killed, Capt. A. H. Coltart, Second‑Lieuts. Jackson, Malby, Briggs, Simmance, Reid, Mapplebeck, and M. S. Conkey slightly wounded (fit for duty). Approximately 374 other ranks killed, wounded and missing. The battalion moved back to morning billets at dusk and remained there for the night."

Into all the details of attacks by other battalions it is impossible to go, but throughout that critical period the gallantry shown by all ranks was splendid, and will ever remain a memorial to those brave men who resisted the terrible onslaught of those first treacherous gas attacks.

[izzy]

On the Merseyside Roll of Honour Webpage there is a Pte H.M Mcdonough died 1915 it may possible that its him. If so there will definitly be an article on him in the Liverpool Press.

[kathleen donaldson]

There is a Picture in The Liverpool Evening Express in edititon dated

PRIVATE H.M MCDONOUGH 23RD JUNE 1915

[Promenade]

Having significantly reduced my number of postings owing to people not acknowledging a post I find yet again another example of posters not having the courtesy to acknowledge a posting - the individual here has made more than one visit since my posting above - certainly makes me again very, very reluctant to bother to post any replies to KLR queries . .

Promenade

[bruce]

Joe

The original poster may not have acknowledged your great assistance, but I have enjoyed reading it!

Bruce

[Stephen Nulty]

Joe

Tried to PM you but can't get a message to you. Could you ping me an email?

[museumtom]

Hello Promenade.

I feel your frustration, but I have found the 'ungrateful' posters are usually inexperienced newbies. So when this happens I delete all my posts, add no more, and add the posters name to a list whose topics I do not post on anymore. If, logging all mention of soldiers, whether they died or not, found in the Irish regional newspapers, should I find any mention of relevant soldiers of ungrateful posters, they are not informed. Another is that now, should I see a posting from a 'pal' with very few posts,and I can help them, I always check if they had the courtesy and manners to say thanks for any help they have received. You know the rest. As my father used to say "you are where you put yourself."

Now there's my rant over.

Cheers.

Tom.

[Stephen Nulty]

Thanks Joe

[CarylW]

Joe

The original poster may not have acknowledged your great assistance, but I have enjoyed reading it!

Bruce

Same here. Always appreciated Joe. I wonder if some members just forget where they have posted, or lose their way back. I'm on here on a regular basis and know the forum inside out, yet when I check my 'content', I sometimes find helpful replies I've missed

Caryl

[tharkin56]

i sometimes wonder why post suddenly come to an end, either the person got what they need from the forum or somewhere else. I always used new content and sometimes don't read all pages, click off and click back on again, thus having one page of new content.

[caroline@linkagecomputing.co.uk]

I found your reply very interesting and there I am again getting hooked on this forum and all the helpful advice given.

Caroline

[jonthemon]

TO PROMENADE Sir as anyone can see on this page on the 7th of june 2013 you gave me a lot of information about my grandad John Lovatt.I was sure that i acknowledged this but it looks as if i did not .I therefore appologise and hope this goes a little way to smooth things over. I am going over next week to place a poppy wreath on the Menin Gate on the 27th of April exactly 100 years to the day he died. I would not be doing this if it wasn,t for the information that you and others put on this site.So thankyou again and think of me and my grandad next Monday night at 2000 .YOU MADE IT HAPPEN.

the last of these added pictures is my grandson laying a photo of grandad on an unknown warrior who died on the same day in the same battle.

Edited 31 January , 2017 by jonthemon
add photo,s

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Very magnanimously put ..... perhaps you could grab an image of the wreath in situ?.

This was was excellent post by the way Promenade and I enjoyed the read - thanks for taking the time to compile it.

KB

[ghc]

I have just finished working on a book about the remarkable Gilbert Mapplebeck of the 4th The King's (Liverpool Regiment and No 4 Squadron Royal Flying Corps, in association with his nephew, Peter. It features the text of the two diaries that he kept, one including details of the Gembloux flight and other events, the second detailing the night bombing mission to Lille that ended with him being shot down, hidden by locals and then smuggled back to England. Using large amounts of archive material from the family and materials from the Records Office at Kew, we have been able to piece together the story of his 1 year in the RFC before he was killed at Joyce Green Aerodrome in Kent just two days short of his 23rd birthday.

http://www.lulu.com/...t-22426137.html