Are these men the Regimental Band

[mikebriggs]

Yet another request please.

Here is a group of 5th or 6th Battn Notts & Derby (Sherwood Foresters) in Camp. As you can see they are with a number of drums. Could this be the Regimental Band?

They all have a distinctive 'squareish' bagde on their arm

thanks again

Mike

[mikebriggs]

and here is close up of the Badge

[FROGSMILE]

and here is close up of the Badge

These men are from the Corps of Drums and they are wearing arm badges ( a representation of a side drum too indicate that). Each of the battalions within the Regular Army regiments were (and still are) established for a platoon sized group of drummers. 'Drummers' (and in Scottish Regts 'Pipers', in Rifle Regts 'Buglers') were/are professional soldiers with the added duty of playing percussion/musical instruments and specially established for each infantry battalion and paid a stipend of 1 penny a day extra. They had to learn to play the bugle and 'sounded' regimental calls of the day to mark battalion routine (e.g. come to the cook house, orderly room, reveille and last post). They are a separate body and only come under the control of the Bandmaster/Director of Music for specific parades where music is played. They were usually part of Headquarters Company and in war originally formed the Defence Platoon for Battalion HQ, but nowadays are often double roled as the Machine Gun Platoon.

Those more multi-talented drummers were also taught the fife and all were trained in their musical/percussion skills by the Sgt Drummer (unofficially known as the Drum Major). Up until around 1902 there were also several boys aged 14 to 17 (often but not always orphans) officially on the establishment, hence the sobriquet 'boy drummers'. Full dress was officially withdrawn from all but the Guards battalions in 1914 as a wartime economy.

[Muerrisch]

Nice photo, they are obviously proud of their status as drummers: too proud, because the drum badge should only be worn upper right sleeve as a badge of appointment. This is probably a unit peculiarity, rather than an individual vanity.

They had a higher status than 'rank and file' and were indeed paid 1d per day extra, total 1/1-.

Fully trained infantrymen, and one duty in war was continuity of ammunition supply.

4 drummers to a company, 16 total, plus a sergeant drummer. Only about half would parade with drum, all with the bugle, and the other half with fife. The bass drummer was usually excused carrying a bugle, for obvious reasons. To this day, the LSgt Drummer who plays the Drummer's Call at Sovereign's Birthday Parade has a slung bugle.

Drummers had to master fife and bugle calls.

'Boys', up to age 18 years, were specifically authorized by Mobilization Regs, and with their CO permission, to accompany the battalion on active service. 'Boys' came as cheap drummers, drawing 5d per day less than the adults.

[Stebie9173]

The Drum on the far right is a bit of a clue too....

I guess the two lads standing back right would be in the "Drummer Boy" category...

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

I guess the two lads standing back right would be in the "Drummer Boy" category...

Steve.

Yes Steve, the age for joining as a 'boy (literal) soldier' has always been aligned with the statutory school leaving age which changed after each major war. After 2nd Boer War it was 12, after WW1 it was 14 and after WW2 it was 15. It is currently 16 and a half.

[Muerrisch]

This from my 'Bounden Duty and Service' published in Stand To! a couple of years ago.

My source was Recruiting Regs.

Boys [boys were enlisted from 14 to 16 years and became army men at their 18th official birthday], enlisted for nine years plus three years on the Regular Reserve, unless they were to be tailors or shoemakers, who undertook to serve twelve years with the colours and with no reserve liability. The maximum number of boys allowed on the establishment of a battalion was 16 as band or drums, and four as tradesmen.

I have the ages for TF and SR too, if needs be.

[mikebriggs]

Dear all

Thanks for your responses, very intersting and helpful as always (Frogsmile thanks for PM too).

I guess this is a drummer boy (I think that he is 1/7th or 1/8th Battn)

cheers

mike

[FROGSMILE]

Dear all

Thanks for your responses, very intersting and helpful as always (Frogsmile thanks for PM too).

I guess this is a drummer boy (I think that he is 1/7th or 1/8th Battn)

cheers

mike

What a superb photo of a Boy Bandsman Mike, he has a bandsman's Lyre on his right upper arm, bandsmen's wings on upper shoulder and no drummers lace (so-called 'Crown and inch') on his arms.

Until the end of the 2nd Boer War (1902) Boy Drummers could go on active service, but casualties led to questions in the House of Commons and thereafter if their battalion was deployed in harms way they were made to stay at either the Regt Depot, or another battalion of the Regt on Home Service, until they came of age. Most famously the Boy Drummers of the 24th Regt at Isandhlwana in Jan 1879 were suspended from the encampment's flag poles with their throats cut by the victorious Zulus.

[Muerrisch]

Have to disagree about boys being left at Home:

Mobilization Regs. 1914 para 163 specically permit the age qualification to be waived in the case of drummers, buglers, and trumpeters at the discretion of the OC unit and medical officer.

Boys being boys, I expect there was a queue forming. One does not know how many went, but 2nd RWF certainly had some.

But no Band Boys!

[FROGSMILE]

Have to disagree about boys being left at Home:

Mobilization Regs. 1914 para 163 specically permit the age qualification to be waived in the case of drummers, buglers, and trumpeters at the discretion of the OC unit and medical officer.

Boys being boys, I expect there was a queue forming. One does not know how many went, but 2nd RWF certainly had some.

But no Band Boys!

I guess we must have posted at nearly the same time Grumpy. Are you deliberately targeting my posts? It is beginning to seem that way given the way the threads are running.

Your quote of Mob Regs is interesting and I don't doubt what you say, especially about 2 RWF. That said I would be intrigued to see what number of Boy Drummers became casualties, which presumably they would have done. I wonder if it is possible to research that. I imagine few were in the front line by 1915.

[Arnie]

Nice photo, they are obviously proud of their status as drummers: too proud, because the drum badge should only be worn upper right sleeve as a badge of appointment. This is probably a unit peculiarity, rather than an individual vanity.

They had a higher status than 'rank and file' and were indeed paid 1d per day extra, total 1/1-.

Fully trained infantrymen, and one duty in war was continuity of ammunition supply.

4 drummers to a company, 16 total, plus a sergeant drummer. Only about half would parade with drum, all with the bugle, and the other half with fife. The bass drummer was usually excused carrying a bugle, for obvious reasons. To this day, the LSgt Drummer who plays the Drummer's Call at Sovereign's Birthday Parade has a slung bugle.

Drummers had to master fife and bugle calls.

'Boys', up to age 18 years, were specifically authorized by Mobilization Regs, and with their CO permission, to accompany the battalion on active service. 'Boys' came as cheap drummers, drawing 5d per day less than the adults.

Grumpy

The drum, bugle Badges I think were worn on both Arms in service, dress one arm in Scarlet they were also worn on both arms in battle dress. In fact the badges were issued in pairs not important for the drum badge the Bugle badge had to have mouth pieces to the front. My sister has my Great uncles badges from the Great war, mounted and like all good buglers badges they are polished smooth. In the present No3 dress they are only worn on one arm.

The establishment for Corps of drums/ Bugles was as you say 16 (Called Drummer/Bugler) but all regiments carried extra Drummers and Buglers on the Battalion strength ie in B company on paper but a bugler all still called Privates. Today the drummers etc are also the machine gun platoon and there strength I think is 30 odd

Buglers and drummers etc were originally Command post defence platoon but like you say they were farmed out to companies and their official roll changed.

When Light Infantry trooped their colour the Co's Bugler would march to the right flank of Number one company and sound the Buglers call

Arnie

[Muerrisch]

I guess we must have posted at nearly the same time Grumpy. Are you deliberately targeting my posts? It is beginning to seem that way given the way the threads are running.

Your quote of Mob Regs is interesting and I don't doubt what you say, especially about 2 RWF. That said I would be intrigued to see what number of Boy Drummers became casualties, which presumably they would have done. I wonder if it is possible to research that. I imagine few were in the front line by 1915.

To answer your question: I have better things to do than target anyone! I don't even know how to target a poster .... I just look at new items and try to help people in my speciality areas. I suppose our interests are similar. I have been posting in my areas of knowledge for quite a long time and have no intention of changing my habits. If you want to avoid my posts, anything to do with the Navy or the RAF or the war outside the Western Front should be fairly safe. So that you will feel comfortable, I'll leave this thread alone from now on.

Arnie: Clothing Regs in our period stipulate that appointment badges were for right upper arm but I am sure that the drummer's badge, like many others, was mis-worn.

To give an example, there was no issue of a badge for the tunic, because the crown & inch tape, and the wings, said all that needed to be said. Nevertheless, wearing the blue, yellow and white large badge was commonplace on the tunic. There was an issue of one per soldier for the scarlet frock, and I have photos of two badges being worn. So I am far from surprised at two on the SD jacket, all I can say it it was not kosher. If the drum serjeant, or the Adjt. or the CO did not like it, they only had to say.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for your reply Grumpy. I am well aware of how long you have been posting and also that you specialise. The fact remains that you have made a point of following my posts for some days now (as any examination will show) and that does seem odd. I am not going to avoid your posts, nor do I expect you to avoid mine, although it would be less creepy if you did not immediately follow them as you have been doing recently.

I value your knowledge even if I do not always agree with what you say (any more than you might necessarily agree with what I say). In that vein I would be interested to hear your response to my suggested query on the numbers of boy drummer casualties between 1914 and 1918. So far I have asked you a couple of direct questions but with no reply (not that a reply is mandatory of course, but it would be mannerly).

[truthergw]

Grumpy's last post makes a good point. Every Unit I ever saw had it's own little ways as far as uniform was concerned. I think the first thing any soldier does on being issued with kit is change it as much as he dares to make it his. This went from ways of ironing a tunic to how to transform your headwear. Some of these things would become the way it was done in a company or batallion, winked at and sometimes actively encouraged by the RSM. Often these things had to disappear for Admin parades. We wore cut down pipers' plumes in our TOS. On certain occasions, these had to be replaced by the skimpy little regulation hackle, just for the day. A soldier tricked out in all his finery for a private photo before he went overseas might well be up for 15 days in the guardroom if the RSM had seen him out in that gear. I know that it was a common thing for a private in a rifle company, on passing out, to borrow a piper or drummer's gear for a photo for his Mum before he joined the batallion. In 90 years time or 60 anyway, these will cause rare confusion among the students of post war army history.

[squirrel]

There is some very good stuff here but I do think that there are some uneeded comments about Grumpy's contributions Frogsmile.

Not unaturally, he is responding to questions and answers on his particular expertise, uniforms and especially trade and proficency badges, which he has studied for years and has published a book on.

He has been of enormous help to many people on this Forum myself included and has a wealth of source material.

With both of you having similar areas of interest you are bound to end up responding to the same enquiries on the same threads and as we have seen, having differing views on certain things, but don't forget the convergent ones as well.

I am sure that he is not targeting you personally. I think that both of you and the rest of us can only benefit from each other's contributions.

Tom,

you are quite correct about the "variations". I have a studio photograph of my uncle who was in the MGC. He is wearing collar badges which o/r's were not supposed to have and is "bulled and blancoed" to the eyeballs. I am sure that there are many photographs from all periods with "non regulation" bits and pieces on show. Watch chains seem to be particularly popular with o/r's from WW1 for instance.

[tom compton]

well pals i'm loving this post keep it coming. my granddad was a 14 year old drummer boy in 1884 with the 1th dorsets anyone have a typical image of a drummer boy from that date and later as a grown up drummer .tom

[FROGSMILE]

This from my 'Bounden Duty and Service' published in Stand To! a couple of years ago.

My source was Recruiting Regs.

In 1795, three experimental regiments were formed "to relieve parishes of boys between the ages of 10 and 16, who were allowed to enlist on condition of the parishes paying their expenses to the recruiting depot".

There were a thousand boys assigned to each regiment, and some served in the Cape and India. All this came to light because of a newspaper item which prompted a War Office investigation WO 32/6881 code 26A, Enlistment of boys under 16 years into Boy Regiments to supplement recruitment; copies of original orders 1797, 1801-1805. In December 1797, seven regiments presumably on the strength of the experiment, were authorised to enlist boys under 16. Pay seems to have been 8d per day, with lower stoppages for stays in hospital than ordinary soldiers. By 1801, there were only two boy regiments, the 32 and 65, presumably the recruits were not replaced as they grew older. However, the failure of the Treaty of Amiens and the resumption of hostilities with France meant an increase in recruitment. Most regiments gained a second battalion, and these were allowed to recruit a "certain number" of boys. The exact status of these boy soldiers is unclear as to whether they were considered combatants or not. However, by the time of the 1876 investigation, and the Taylor Committee on Boy Soldiers of the same year WO 32/6899, the status of Boy Soldiers had become more clearly defined. Boys were enlisted, from the age of fourteen, as musicians, drummers, tailors, shoemakers, artificers or clerks. Their numbers were restricted too - 1% of the regimental strength was to be boy musicians, and 1/2% tailors and shoemakers; drummers were considered separately from musicians and were not part of the regiment's strength.

However, their terms of service had not really been settled; but by 1911 three different committee reports had touched on the matter, and forced a review:

Field-Marshall Sir Evelyn Wood's Committee on the reduction of charges for pensions of warrant officers raised the issue whether boy service should count towards a pension.

Field Marshal Lord Kitchener's Committee on the Organisation and Administration of the Corps of Royal Engineers recommended a substantial overall increase in the number of boy soldiers.

Major-General Crutchley's Committee on Army Tradesmen naturally touched on tradeboys.

The result was Colonel Strachey's Committee on Boy enlistment which with related papers, can be found in WO 32/6896, dates covered, 1911-1913. In November 1911 there were 3,826 boys serving in the British Army, of which 2,984 were musicians. Strachey found that this number was too small and made general recommendations with regard to service and conditions which were largely accepted and regularised the boys' conditions. On 1 December 1912, there were 31 boys enlisted into the Royal Irish Regiment, 11 musicians and 4 tailors at home and in the colonies and 16 unspecified in India WO 32/6897.

[FROGSMILE]

This link gives some interesting facts about what British drummers were expected to learn:

http://www.royalengineers.ca/Bugle.html

[squirrel]

Interesting indeed. I have the CD in question and I am amazed at the detial that they had to memorise and also practice these calls and that's without the drum calls as well.

One chap I met years ago had done his national Service with the Manchester Regiment and as he had played the bugle in the Boy's brigade he became a Drummer.

The only call he was told not to practice was the alarm.

When they did have a fire he was told to sound the call and had difficulty recalling it not surprisingly. How many of those hearing it knowing what it was is another matter.

[mikebriggs]

Here is the 6th Battn Notts & Derby Band taken in Summer Camp at Clumber Park in 1913.

[mikebriggs]

Here is a quote from the 2nd Battn History (Sherwoods)

'another runner who won great praise was Drummer Bentley, also of A Company and little more than a boy, whose gallantry on this day won him the Distinguished Conduct Medal...'

Refers to the Battle of Hooge in August 1915