ORR, James - Did he enlist twice?

[Q98]

James ORR was born 10th May 1885 at Glasgow and enlisted on 10 September 1914 at Blackboy Hill, Western Australia as Private James ORR No. 85, 11 Bn, Australian Imperial Force. On August 1915, 11 Bn made preparatory attacks at the southern end of the ANZAC position at Gallipoli before the battle of Lone Pine. Australian readers will immediately recognise the significance of Lone Pine.

Corporal James ORR 2264, 57 Bn was killed in action in France on 25th April 1918. In late March 1918, a major offensive was launched by the Germans and 57 Bn participated in the now legendary counter-attack at Villers-Bretonneux on 25 April 1918 (the day of his death).

Are Private ORR 85, 11 Bn and Cpl ORR 2264 57 Bn one and the same person and, if so, why are his Regimental Numbers different?

[alliekiwi]

Well, on the front page of the service record for James Orr, service no 85 says 'Now serving as 2264 - 57th Bn' across the top of the Attestation form...

(Have you seen the service records online at the Australian National Archives site? If not, go here and do a name search for ORR and category of WW1 records. You can then refine the search to include the first name James and/or service number.)

Allie

[alliekiwi]

Most of the file for 2264 Orr, James is actually a duplicate file of 85 Orr, James and uses both 85 and 2264 numbers. Later on in the file it says "This man is probably identical with 85 Orr, J 11th Bn".

From having a quick read-through, it seems he (No. 85) was invalided back to Australia in May 1915. He was sent back to duty at 'Broadmeadows' on 1st June 1915, but somehow popped up having re-embarked as No. 2264 on 25/06/15. No-one seems to quite note how this happened. There isn't an attestation form for No 2264 on file that I can see.

There is a 1922 letter on file from No 85's sister in Canada saying she'd not heard from him since he was returned to Australia in 1915, but that he may have left a Mrs J McCready 5 Raise Street, Saltcoats, Ayrshire, Scotland as his next of kin. This is the identical address of the next of kin who received No 2264's personal effects and is listed in his will - although the spelling is listsed as Mrs A McCreadie.

Allie

[Esskay]

This is a link to the circular form that was filled out for the Australian Roll of Honour - gives a little more background info on him and and was completed by Agnes McCreadie (adopted mother) - it mentions army service in Canada - but not his previous life in the AIF.

http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/awm131/038/038084.pdf

The AWM info gives his full name as James John Orr and the place of enlistment as Gisborne (Victoria) - this is obviously 2nd time around if his initial enlistment was in WA

Sue

[alliekiwi]

It's interesting that Mrs McCreadie stated on the form that James had been 30 years old when he went to Australia for the following qustion: "If born in Britain or Abroad, at what age did he come to Australia?"

His sister, in her letter of 1922, states that her brother would be 36 years old now, and that he'd been Australia for about 12 years - so he'd have been 24 years old when he went there.

Allie

[Esskay]

He seems to have missed out being on the AWM Embarkation Roll as 2264 - there are 40 listed with that number - but no Orr

The 1914 embarkation as 85 shows him as a 29 year old platelayer with NOK - Mrs Whitelaw London (Ontario) Canada - was that his sister who wrote in 1922 Allie? - I have to go out so don't have time now to check his service record

Sue

[alliekiwi]

Yes, Sue, that's who wrote in 1922 - she had a change of street address within London, Ontario. Apparently she'd previously written in 1918 to the Australian Headquarters in London, England and was told that James Orr no 85 was returned to Australia in 1915. She'd been listed as NOK when he enlisted as No. 85.

Allie

[Esskay]

Thanks Allie - something doesn't quite add up does it - if as the OP says he was born in 1885 - he wouldn't have been 30 till 1915!! - Gotta run now will have a look back later

Cheers

Sue

[alliekiwi]

It would also be interesting to know *when* they realised it was the same man. Surely they must have known by 1918 when his sister wrote?

For a start, they must have noticed that No 85 was not where he was supposed to be in June 1915. There really is a gap on the file as to how they put two and two together.

No. 85's Attestation form also states he had service in Canada. It says "2 years Canadian 5th Royal High" (presumably highlanders). I wonder if there's anything online in the Canadian archives about that?

Using his sister's dates, if he'd been in Australia about 12 years at 1922, then he must have arrived in approx 1910, aged 24. He could easily have done his 2 years military service in Canada prior to that, age-wise.

Allie

[alliekiwi]

No. 85's Attestation form also states he had service in Canada. It says "2 years Canadian 5th Royal High" (presumably highlanders). I wonder if there's anything online in the Canadian archives about that?

Using his sister's dates, if he'd been in Australia about 12 years at 1922, then he must have arrived in approx 1910, aged 24. He could easily have done his 2 years military service in Canada prior to that, age-wise.

From another thread on the forum, we can narrow the dates possibly, when he was in the military in Canada:

This unit was formed in 1862 as the 5th Bn., Volunteer Militia Rifles of Canada, in Montreal. Over the years it went through a number of name changes,and by 1880 was decidedly Scottish. In 1906 it was designated 5th Bn.,Royal Highlanders of Canada.

In WW1 it was the only regiment to provide three fighting battalions for the CEF (13th, 42nd, 73rd Bns). In 1920 it became the Royal Highlanders of Canada; in 1930, the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders). The current title was authorised in 1935 - The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada. It wears the Black Watch tartan, uses The Highland Laddie as the marchpast, and its motto is Nemo Me Impune Lacessit

So it looks like he was probably in the 5th Royal Highlanders for two years sometime between 1906 and 1910, or at least overlapping the 1906 name-change somewhat.

Allie

veering off topic madly