Jump to content
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Fromelles16: July 19th events


velo350
 Share

Recommended Posts

Alternatively, someone could try to identify (if possible) the names of all the missing British soldiers at Fromelles and then trawl through the service files that weren't affected by the blitz to see if similar German documents were attached.

Tim I think this could be narrowed down to just the 2/7th Warks, because according to the Official History, they were the only British troops to make it into the Germans, and I can't see the Germans bring in British dead from No Mans Land.

I did notice that some of the 2/7th missing casualties are recorded with their original four figure numbers and others with six figure TF renumberings

Mel that is interesting, I think it could be down to those with four digets being confirmed killed either because there was a body (which was later lost) or other soldiers had seen Pte. so and so killed. And these that have six diget numbers were missing without anyone having seen what had apponed to them ? I could be wrong. But if anyone is thinking of looking for the "British missing mens" service papers then the six diget Warks mite be a good starting point.

Annette

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be a matter of marrying up the battalions in the battle with those killed on the dates of 19th and 20th July listed on the CWGC ... most likely named on the VC Corner Cemetery Memorial and possibly some on VB ... then applying for the burial lists from the Red Cross :)

Simple Science Freddie :P

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cross referencing here:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=99324&hl=

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all,

Charles Bean reported that a small group of the 1st Bucks may have temporarily captured a small part of the Sugarloaf. Does anyone know if this is true or not?

If there are 400 men buried in Pheasant Wood and 170 odd are Australian that would leave 230 Brits mainly from the 7th Warwichshires. Which British battalions are confirmed as entering the German line? This seems an awful lot from a single battalion to be killed in the German lines. I can't find how many of this battalion have no known grave as a result of 19th July? How many men did they have killed in this attack? If these questions have already been answered on this thread then sorry about that, but am very curious.

Do we have a best guess yet from GUARD as to how many men are in the pits at Pheasant Wood?

Is it possible that when the Germans were cleaning up that they buried the remains of men from the 1915 attack?

Regards, Len

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Len ... there are 173 Australians ... an approximate figure of 400 British is in addition to that. This tells me that in terms of research someone has done something and it is somewhere :)

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Len,I read a News Story a Few Weeks ago in which the President of the Berkshire Regimental Association,reckons that there are missing men of the Berks Regt at the Fromelles Site,and He did supply their names.I think the news Story came from the Reading Chronicle..Cheers All.http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/articles/1/3092/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Len,I read a News Story a Few Weeks ago in which the President of the Berkshire Regimental Association,reckons that there are missing men of the Berks Regt at the Fromelles Site,and He did supply their names.I think the news Story came from the Reading Chronicle..Cheers All.http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/articles/1/3092/

That's a good article and its good to see support from the UK for the re-burials.

Sandra, are you suggesting that there are 173 Australians and about 400 Brits at Pheasant Wood? A total of 573?

Cheers,

Len

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Len ... but that number is not set in stone though :)

Tim and I are working on the 173 Australians from the list compiled by Lambis. I think you will find the names in the Fromelles book (I haven't read or seen it).

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both British units mentioned - 2/7 Warwicks and 2/4 Berkshires were part of the 61st TF Division that provided the British contribution to the Fromelles attack - 183rd and 184th Brigades respectively. A look in their war diaries might be illuminating.

Can anyone come up with info on what other units (if any) may have attacked in the vicinity of Pheasant Wood. Is there a map in the relevant volume of the OH? 2/5 Gloucesters History is specifically mentioned by Chris Baker as a source of info for his piece on Fromelles. but I suppose any units of 182,183 and 184 brigades could be involved - apart from those specifically left out of the attack.

A previous poster had the idea that the Germans may have given favourable treatment to the Australian dead to try to drive a wedge between the British & Australian governments. Perhaps this is a possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Len ... I responded to the propaganda post.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Charles Bean reported that a small group of the 1st Bucks may have temporarily captured a small part of the Sugarloaf. Does anyone know if this is true or not?

Regards, Len

If true, I think this must be 2/1 Bucks of the 184th Brigade/61st Division - so this battalion may well be another potential source of British dead in the pits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both British units mentioned - 2/7 Warwicks and 2/4 Berkshires were part of the 61st TF Division that provided the British contribution to the Fromelles attack - 183rd and 184th Brigades respectively. A look in their war diaries might be illuminating.

The War Diary for the 2/4 Berks can be viewed online at https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/wardiary.php.

The entry for 19th July 1916 reads:

"Artillery preparation opened at 11am attack at 6pm 2/1 BUCKS on our LEFT. AUSTRALIAN Division on Left of 2/1 BUCKS. 183rd Bde on our Right and 182nd Bde on Right of 183rd Bde, 8th and 61st Divisional Artillery behind our lines.

Casualties Officers 3 Killed (Lt Col J H BEER, 2/Lieut G S ABBOTT and 2/Lieut F C D WILLIAMS) and 2 wounded (Major T SHIELDS and 2/Lieut D R GIBSON). Other ranks 35K, 115W and 8 Shell Shock. Bn relieved by 2/4 OXFORD and BUCKS LI at 1030pm. Marched back into billets at RUE DE LA LYS (G.27.c.2.2 1/2)."

and the entire entry for 20th July:

"Resting and cleaning up."

V.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Victoria.

So 2/4 Berks lost an (at the time) unremarkable 38 killed on 19th July. Quite easy to see how 300 or 400 British dead could eventually end up in the pits - with collective amnesia about them assisted by the attack being a sideshow failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

The battalion history of the 2/1st Buckinghamshire Battalion of 184 Brigade 61st (2nd South Midland) Division records that:-

“Even before 5.40 p.m., the enemy machine guns had begun to get busy, and at 6 p.m. they literally mowed down the advancing waves; only a few men actually reached the German parapet, some were seen actually on the parapet, and may have got in, but none got back.”

“The casualties in the Battalion, which had gone into action with 20 officers and 622 other ranks, were 322 of all ranks during the 18th and 19th July.”

KILLED:- Officers 4 Other Ranks 62

WOUNDED:- Officers 9 Other Ranks 180

MISSING:- Officers 2 Other Ranks 65 (all presumed killed)

88 of the 2nd Bucks are still recorded as “missing” from the 19th July 1916 and are commemorated on the Loos Memorial.

Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve - those listed as "killed", I presume may mean that the bodies are in British possession or does it simply mean that a survivor has seen the individual killed.

Anyway, it is clear how there may well be many 61st Division men in those pits at Fromelles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it could be down to those with four digets being confirmed killed either because there was a body (which was later lost) or other soldiers had seen Pte. so and so killed. And these that have six diget numbers were missing without anyone having seen what had apponed to them ? I could be wrong. But if anyone is thinking of looking for the "British missing mens" service papers then the six diget Warks mite be a good starting point.

Annette

I had another look at the missing for the 2/7th for 19th July 1916. Out of the seventy one listed on the Loos Memorial, thirty two have their original 4 digit numbers with the remainder subsequently renumbered pending their being officially declared dead.

My view (and I hasten to add that I might be completely wrong) is that the thirty two that retained their original four numbers were confirmed dead at a much earlier stage. Your suggestion that x confirmed y's death may well be true but it could be as likely that these were the trench dead confirmed by the Germans.

I also note that one of the reports that I picked up on indicated that when the excavation team conducted a lateral dig at the end of the pits, the density of the remains was estimated to be in the region of 200 and not the original 400 as thought.

Perhaps 170+ Aussies and about 30 British is a little bit fanciful. Interesting speculation though ....

Regards

Mel

Ps I tried to PM you the list of the 71 2/7th Warwicks but your box was full.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it could be as likely that these were the trench dead confirmed by the Germans

Yes Mel see your point, and if the number in the pit does number around 200, then the thirty two who have their original 4 digit numbers would add up with Aussies figures just right, give one or two either way.

I note in the official History that the Brigade's (182nd) M.G. coy joined the Warks. in the German front line, does anyone know how many men they lost on the day, and how many are listed as missing ?

Annette

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Annette

The 182nd MGC Company has two listed casualties:

Name: TIPPLE, HERBERT

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)

Unit Text: 182nd Coy.

Age: 27

Date of Death: 19/07/1916

Service No: 30525

Additional information: Born at Hull. Son of William and Maria Tipple, of Tor College, Stepney Drive, Scalby Rd., Scarborough.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Sp. Mem. 11.

Cemetery: CABARET-ROUGE BRITISH CEMETERY, SOUCHEZ

Name: WALLER, ALBERT

Initials: A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)

Unit Text: 182nd Coy.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 19/07/1916

Service No: 28579

Additional information: Son of Robert and Maria Waller, of 44, Institute Rd., Eccleshill, Bradford, Yorks.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 136.

Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Regards

Mel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just interupting here ...perhaps an easier way would be if for the CWGC (if they are able) to give you a list of the missing soldiers from the Fromelles battle?

Perhaps Terry Denham can answer that one :)

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dont know if this image has been posted, but here is a photo of a Rising Sun lapell badge found at the mass grave at fromelles

2008-S1143_lo.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing this photo of Pheasant Wood does make me hope that we make the right decision about how to proceed - whatever that might be!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Col ... it looks so peaceful too ...

Lest We Forget!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tim has updated the Australian Fromelles soldiers website ... I think he has done a wonderful job.

Well Done!

http://www.fromelles.net/

Bright Blessings

Sandra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To those who fell at Fromelles/Fleurbaix 19/20 July 1916 and have recently been found

Rest easy now your battle's o'er

Your souls are released and to Heaven soar

Your countries called; your duty's done

Your spirits fly towards the setting sun

Lest We Forget

Rod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...