Arthur Sidney WEST - Aussie Ammo Worker 1917

[anniestuart]

Hello everyone,

Jock West was my grandmother's brother and I'm the one who wrote the story which Theo posted here.I have received some messages from Neil re pertpetual maintenance of the grave which would be absolutely wonderful.

Neil asked about photos of Jock and I will send them to him.

I also have a copy of his obituary in the Crayford Works magazine,his death certificate and a certificate enrolling him as a Munitions

Worker which I will also send to Neil.

Family members have told me that Jock's injuries were absolutely horrific-he was literally minced in the accident.

As I said in the story he was unfit for war service possibly because of poor eyesight but wanted to do his bit for the war effort which is why he went overseas as a munitions worker paying his own way.According to my grandmother Jock was a kind,gentle and well loved man.

Thank you all so much for your efforts in trying to make sure that dear Jock is not forgotten.His mother never really recovered from his death.

I should also add that the "John" in my story also posts to this forum.

Annie in Australia

[Neil Clark]

Annie,

Fantastic, You already have the Death Certificate! This will save me having to apply for it locally. Would you please tell me here what the cause of death was according to the D.C? I realise he was terribly injured. I'm very sorry to learn that his dear mother never got over her sons death. Hopefully we will be able to get his death registered as a casualty of the war which will result in his name being commemorated by the Australian Government. I must say it's a great pity that our own Commonwealth War Graves Commission is unable to act in this instance because it is impeded by it's own restrictive (some would now say outdated) rules. It will be great to post his photos here on these pages where we can all pay our respects to this brave man.

You already have my personal email address. You should be able to email copies of those documents to me. If you experience any problem I will gladly provide my home address and will happily discharge any postage costs etc... Those documents in your possession are required because it will help to prove his status as a Munitions Worker. The newspaper cutting from his work will prove where he actually worked. It is my understanding at this time he worked in the "Vickers" Machine Gun Factory, Crayford, Dartford, Kent. I wonder if anyone might be able to come up with more background on his place of work? I have found things like this often help cases like this. The more you appear to know the more respect you get...

It's a pleasure to talk with you here on this excellent forum. I think it strengthens our hand considerably having a member of his blood family on board. I'm sure others will appreciate your input here too...

With Terry Denham's permission, I shall also provide you with his email address. Terry has already requested his Australian Government Service Papers...

I think you may well be very surprised to learn that so many people do STILL care for Jock here in England?

[Terry Denham]

Neil

Sorry... It is not 'our own' Commonwealth War Graves Commission. It is an international body and is as much Australian as it is NZ, Canadian, SA, British or Indian. They operate without favour to any Commonwealth dead.

And nobody has said that they are 'unable to act'. They have not been provided with the details of the case (which is what I thought we had decided to do).

If this man qualifies (and we have no evidence of that yet - no matter what we may believe initially ourselves) and we provide the evidence, he will be commemorated.

[anniestuart]

Hello again,

I have just sent sent some documents and photos to Neil including a death certificate.He asked me to post Jock's cause of death on this forum:

"Shock and internal haemorrhage following injuries to ribs and lungs through falling on to a band cutting machine whilst at work by misadventure illegible word Dartford"

One again I am most grateful for everyone's care.I will keep the other family members informed.

Regards

Annie

[anniestuart]

Hello again from Annie.

I have been reading through the excellent posts on this forum and was just wondering what criteria the CWGC use when deciding if a person receives official commemoration?

It also seems to me from the postings here that if the CWGC does not recognise Jock's case that there are other avenues to explore which is really heartening.

I would dearly love to see the poor man remembered in some official way but anyway I'm really touched by the interest and care shown by the folk on this forum.

Just for the sake of interest Jock's parents and grandparents were originally from Tavistock.They sailed from Plymouth to Sydney Australia in 1880. The journey took seventy five days and the ship finally arrived in Sydney on 10th January, 1881. There was an epidemic of measles on the ship and thirty six children were buried at sea but otherwise conditions on board the ship were reported to be very good!

Jock's grandfather Luke was an alderman on Enfield's(Sydney) first council and he was also an inventor of quite some note. Luke fathered 14 children 11 of whom died in infancy. All the Wests were good tradesmen including Jock .They were a fine and well respected family and I'm proud to belong to them.

Regards

Annie

[chrisharley9]

Chris,

Are you suggesting that I write to the Australian Embassy and request a gardener? I will give it a go if our efforts here come to nothing. Hopefully it won't come to that. My gut feeling is that this chap should get war casualty status with the Australian Government. Time will tell...

Neil

Neil

I was thinking more of financial help towards the upkeep of the grave

Chris

[Terry Denham]

Annies

If you read the second post in the pinned thread which heads this section of the Forum, you will get the qualifications for War Grave status. Arthur West falls into category three as he was a member of one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t=0#entry522910

Once a basic liklihood of qualification is proven to CWGC, the case is sent to the MoD in the UK or to similar authorities in Australia, Canada, NZ, South Africa or India. They actually approve (or not) the commemoration.

[chrisharley9]

Terry

who is the appropriate authority in this case he being an Australian civilian

Chris

[Terry Denham]

To clarify.... Australian civilians do not qualify for War Grave status - no more than any others. However, he was an Australian Munitions Worker who died overseas. These do qualify if they died on duty and of a war cause. Splitting hairs, I know..

If a prima facie case is made to CWGC for this man (and that looks very likely), it will be sent to CWGC's Australian office who will get confirmation or otherwise from the Office of Australian War Graves in Canberra. Though a separate organisation, in fact this Australian department acts for CWGC in Australia and so is, in effect, CWGC in Australia acting as their agent. They will refer to whatever records or other departments as necessary and are usually very prompt in decision making (as are all the dominion departments when dealing with these issues).

[chrisharley9]

Terry

thanks very much

Chris

[melliget]

My first post ever on GWF.... a quick googling yeilded this info

"Annie, Bill and Liam Stuart"

Thanks, Theo. Your first post was a very helpful one, providing the important link to Annie in Australia.

regards,

Martin

[melliget]

Martin,

Are you able to confirm the criteria for OFFICAL commemoration by the Australian War Memorial?

Neil.

I'm just catching up (computer problems at home). I think Terry has probably answered this already (haven't had time to read all replies) but the AWM give the criteria for the Commemorative Roll as:

- death was war-caused and suffered during continuous, full-time service;

- the person was born in Australia or the last place of domicile was Australia;

- the date range in which death occurred must be the same as that for the Roll of Honour.

Hopefully he can also be commemorated on the CWGC site and I see that good work is being done towards this end.

regards,

Martin

[Neil Clark]

- death was war-caused and suffered during continuous, full-time service;

- the person was born in Australia or the last place of domicile was Australia;

- the date range in which death occurred must be the same as that for the Roll of Honour.

Hopefully he can also be commemorated on the CWGC site and I see that good work is being done towards this end.

Martin,

Thanks for that clarification. On the face of it, it would appear that we do indeed have a strong case here... This whole thing has cheered me up no end at a depressing time of the year when I normally reach rock bottom!

I will post the D.C and a few photos of Jock here later on today. They were all very kindly provided by Annie from Australia.

[Neil Clark]

Herewith the photos and documents which Annie kindly sent us of Jock and his family -

[Neil Clark]

SERVICE CERTIFICATE -

[Neil Clark]

Family Photos - Not sure which of those young boys is Jock perhaps Annie could explain?

[Terry Denham]

Thanks, Neil

They are very encouraging and things look good. As soon as the other documents arrive from Australia, I shall report back.

[Neil Clark]

Crayford Works (Vickers) magazine report on tragic accident -

[Neil Clark]

Obviously I had to compress all those attachments so that they could be uploaded on to the forum. I have full size copies of all of them. If anyone wants copies, just P.M me and provide an email address where I can send copies. The D.C which Annie sent me wasn't very clear. I think that Annie had to compress the image before sending it from Aussie.

Terry,

I will email you all these full size images now.

Neil

[Terry Denham]

Thanks, Neil

I shall make preliminary enquiries about this case as I think we have sufficient evidence here.

[Neil Clark]

Terry,

Did you read that reference to a AUBREY WARREN (contractor to Vickers) who went down on the SS. Arabia on 6 November 1916 after it was torpedoed? I wonder if he is also entitled to commemoration? One case leads to another.....

[Terry Denham]

Neil

I doubt his case would qualify as (although he died of a war cause) he was not 'on duty' at the time.

[johnreed]

Neil

Jock is in the back row right hand side.

John

[Neil Clark]

John,

I think it only fair to mention what has happened -

John Reed tended this man's grave some time ago and then very kindly sent pictures of his grave and headstone to his family in Australia. I was not aware of John's previous interest in Jock's grave. Like me, John was surprised to learn that Jock MAY be entitled to a belated commemoration. My original intent was to merely draw attention to his grave and the circumstances of his demise. It was only after discussing the matter with Terry Denham that I realised this was a potential non-comm! Although I have personally submitted many military non-comms to the MoD over the past 5 years or so, this is the very first time I have had dealings with a civilian entitled to this tribute. Without Terry's involvement I would never have known! I'm very glad I posted those photos at the start.

A BIG thanks to JOHN REED for tending his grave in the past...

[anniestuart]

Yes Jock is on the RHS in the back row. The others are his mother Mary and siblings.My grandmother Bessie is in the back row LHS.

I'm pleased to see that Neil has spoken of John Reed's original involvemant in tending Jock's grave.He's very modest about it but he and his wife Jackie did a wonderful job.

Regards

Annie