Uniform Confirmation

[richardp@comsine.co.uk]

Hi all

Attached is a photo of two brothers. I believe the one on the left was in the 12th London Regiment (Rangers) and the one on the right was in the Middlesex Regiment. Can anyone confirm that? Is it possible to say which Battalion the chap on the right was with - could it be the 12th?

I also note that the uniform on the right has brass buttons, whilst the one on the left does not. Was button material different from regiment to regiment?

Also, although not shown, the one on the left is holding a long stick/switch and is wearing a webbing belt. However, as far as I'm aware he was only a private - so why the stick?

Many thanks

Richard

[Steven Broomfield]

The right-hand one is defintely Middlesex, but as to Battalion, no idea.

The left-hand one looks like Rangers, and the black buttons indicate a rifle regiment, as opposed to the more usual brass ones of the Middlesex man.

Stick is nothing - swagger stick, possibly a photographer's prop.

Any chance of a close-up of the Rangers' left shoulder? It looks like a cloth shoulder title, recently discussed elsewhere on the Forum.

[FROGSMILE]

Hi all

Attached is a photo of two brothers. I believe the one on the left was in the 12th London Regiment (Rangers) and the one on the right was in the Middlesex Regiment. Can anyone confirm that? Is it possible to say which Battalion the chap on the right was with - could it be the 12th?

I also note that the uniform on the right has brass buttons, whilst the one on the left does not. Was button material different from regiment to regiment?

Also, although not shown, the one on the left is holding a long stick/switch and is wearing a webbing belt. However, as far as I'm aware he was only a private - so why the stick?

Many thanks

Richard

So-called 'swagger sticks' were permitted for 'walking out dress', which both of these men appear too be wearing (i.e. their 'best' SD in wartime).

[findabetterole]

The 'Swagger stick' was a general issue item to the British Army at the time of WW.1. Soldiers being soldiers, the first place thay want to put there hands when in uniform was in their pockets. The British Army frowns upon such a sluvanly practice, and wants its soldiers to march around in a soldierly fathon. The Swagger stick took care of two problems when the soldiers were out of barracks when in uniform...

1) It stopped the soldier from walking around with his hands in his pockets, as though he were back in 'civvey street'

2) Having something now for his hands to do, the soldier was able to march around as though he were a Regimental Sergeant-Major on the battalions parade ground. Cock of the hoop, chest out, proud as punch, and taking in the admiring glances from the surrounding females! Hense the term.. 'To Swagger'... ergo: 'Swagger Stick'

I am not certain as to when the practice of issuing the swagger stick stopped, but I would assume it was around the mid 1920's.

Seph

[saintconor]

I would guess the soldier on the left is from the 21st County of London Battalion (First Surrey Rifles). Although i have just seen the cap badge of the 12th London Regiment and itcould well be them too. Not much help I'm afraid.

[alliekiwi]

As Steven says, blackened buttons generally mean a rifle regiment. However, it's a little difficult to see the button properly in what you've posted, other than its colour. It looks as though the button has an indented centre where it's then sewn on? Rifle Brigade buttons had a shank at the back where they were sewn on just like the shiney ones of other regiments.

Are you able to show the button more clearly?

Allie

[Chris Henschke]

'The 'Swagger stick' was a general issue item to the British Army at the time of WW.1. Soldiers being soldiers, the first place thay want to put there hands when in uniform was in their pockets. The British Army frowns upon such a sluvanly [sic] practice, and wants its soldiers to march around in a soldierly fathon [sic]. The Swagger stick took care of two problems when the soldiers were out of barracks when in uniform...'

A general issue item to the British Army at the time of WW1? That is very interesting. I never knew it was an issue item. I was always under the impression that it was just a common studio prop.

What is a fathon? Is it an American term?

Chris Henschke

[mctaz]

It was my belief, that the use of swagger sticks by regular Army private soldiers was frowned upon, and they were mostly an affectation of Territorials and the Militia?

I've seen a few belonging to SNCO's that were engraved with crests, unit & owners names, but had thought these would have been privately purchased.

Interested to hear if they were in fact, "regulation issue" for OR's

Jim

[findabetterole]

soldierly fathon

What is a fathon? Is it an American term?

Chris Henschke

Trust an Aussie to catch me without me teesh in!!

The 'Swagger Stick' was indeed issued to OR's, and used as an item for use with the 'Walking out Dress Uniform': or best SD.

Seph

[richardp@comsine.co.uk]

Guys - fantastic - thanks for all your contributions.

As requested I have attached a close up of the shoulder and buttons, but I'm not sure it will help much.

Showing my ignorance, what was the difference between a rifle regiment and an infantry regiment - surely the latter used rifles too?

Finally, I have attached a copy of the full image so you can see the swagger stick in all its glory. The photo shows my grand mother Alice Gibson with her two brothers, Arthur and Harold 'sometime' during the war. Both went to France in 1915 and both survived the war, although their half-brother Ernest did not.

cheers

Richard

[alliekiwi]

Yes, blackened buttons with a shank - rifle regiment.

Regarding the difference between the rifle brigade and the infantry... I asked the exact same question awhile ago. click.

The men in your photo are both wearing simplified SD jackets which were issued around 1915/16. Hard to say about the hats... does that look like a 'soft' trench hat to anyone else? (particularly the one worn by the chap on the left) If so, more like a date in 1916. It looks vaguely like you can see some stitching.

The belt... does anyone have a date on that type?

Also a cloth insignia of some sort on the shoulder of Mr Left.

Chap without the belt has been wounded (single wound stripe on his forearm).

Allie

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, blackened buttons with a shank - rifle regiment.

Regarding the difference between the rifle brigade and the infantry... I asked the exact same question awhile ago. click.

The men in your photo are both wearing simplified SD jackets which were issued around 1915/16. Hard to say about the hats... does that look like a 'soft' trench hat to anyone else? (particularly the one worn by the chap on the left) If so, more like a date in 1916. It looks vaguely like you can see some stitching.

The belt... does anyone have a date on that type?

Also a cloth insignia of some sort on the shoulder of Mr Left.

Chap without the belt has been wounded (single wound stripe on his forearm).

Allie

Belt is standard 1908 pattern web normally issued to Regular and TF which would fit in as soldier on left appears to be in 12th Rangers of London Regiment (TF). Cloth badge looks to be early cloth shoulder title that together with soft trench caps would date photo at around 1916-1917.

[Andrew Upton]

Soldier on the right is also wearing a Wound Stripe on his left sleeve, again dating the picture to 1916 or later - can't tell for certain, but it looks like it could be the gold braid version as opposed to the later metal version, which would suggest an earlier date

[richardp@comsine.co.uk]

Guys, once again you have all showed extraordinary kindness in taking the trouble to study the photo and present your opinions. Fascinating and all good stuff to pass onto my father - the oldest surviving nephew of the two in the photo.

Many thanks

Richard

[max7474]

I would guess the soldier on the left is from the 21st County of London Battalion (First Surrey Rifles). Although i have just seen the cap badge of the 12th London Regiment and itcould well be them too. Not much help I'm afraid.

The badge is too large for it to be the 21st Bn - the 12th is a much better match.

Alan

[Muerrisch]

Soldier on the right is also wearing a Wound Stripe on his left sleeve, again dating the picture to 1916 or later - can't tell for certain, but it looks like it could be the gold braid version as opposed to the later metal version, which would suggest an earlier date

I don't think the gilding metal ['brass'] version was ever issue: the AO stiplulates gold russia braid.

I think tailors sold the metal ones: they were more convenient.

[Joe Sweeney]

Trust an Aussie to catch me without me teesh in!!

The 'Swagger Stick' was indeed issued to OR's, and used as an item for use with the 'Walking out Dress Uniform': or best SD.

Seph

This is a bit of semantics and anecdotal but the British Army in the Great War period never issued "canes" (the proper term for ORs sticks).

However, regiments at their option could provide canes as regimental necessaries--paid for out of Regimental funds and not WO funds.

Provided to an OR once and he had to maintain at his cost.

Regiments buying canes during the war was dropped very soon in most cases and never universally issued again. A set of canes might have been maintained and used by soldiers allowed out.

Joe Sweeney

[findabetterole]

Joe... I don't doubt your knowledge, but the proof of the pudding is ... as here, a chap in his best 'SD', new bride on the one side, 'polished to perfection 'Swagger Stick' on the other. Only one of many such period photo's from my files. I did state that I was not so sure as to when the swager stick was discontinued, so thank you for the verification of that particular time period.

Enjoy!

Oh, the chap is from the Army Cysclist Corps.

Seph

[FROGSMILE]

Joe... I don't doubt your knowledge, but the proof of the pudding is ... as here, a chap in his best 'SD', new bride on the one side, 'polished to perfection 'Swagger Stick' on the other. Only one of many such period photo's from my files. I did state that I was not so sure as to when the swager stick was discontinued, so thank you for the verification of that particular time period.

Enjoy!

Oh, the chap is from the Army Cysclist Corps.

Seph

You are absolutely right Seph. Some historians get too wrapped up in regulations and whether something was issued or not and lose sight of soldier 'culture'. If it was soldier culture to carry canes when walking out, which it had been since Victorian times (as they would have seen in Music hall skits, post cards, paintings and prints, as well as within the Army itself) then even hostilities only troops will emulate that. It is still the same today. For example studded ammunition boots are no longer issued to other than the Household Division, but any SNCO worth his salt will obtain and wear a pair because it is soldier 'culture' to do so when on parade. as you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and I concur that I have seen very many pics of soldiers in SD carrying canes during 14-18. Some items were not issue but nevertheless mandatory to purchase and that has continued up until recent times. When I joined my battalion we were marched to the PRI (Regimental) shop and 'invited' to purchase 1 white rifle sling, 1 white belt, 1 white bayonet frog and 1 stable belt.

[Muerrisch]

I have never seen canes / swagger sticks as issue items ..... not 'clothing', not 'necessaries' and not 'public'

The wide variety of cane heads to RWF [the only ones I know about] suggests strongly that they were private purchase, but mandatory!

It really is up to anyone claiming that they were issue to prove it.

This from Frank Richards's Old Soldier Sahib:

We walked out in the town the following evening, each with his regimental swagger cane without which we were not allowed through the gates, and coming along the road Toombs said that we would visit a pub where a few respectable clean skirts frequently called.

[mctaz]

this was a nice image, tried colouring it!

[richardp@comsine.co.uk]

Wow, looks great! Thanks for that.

May I ask how you did it - it would be great to apply to one or two others I have of family in uniform!

cheers

Richard

[mctaz]

I used Photoshop Richard, but there are other programs available that just do recolouring and achieve faster results.

One of them I believe offers a trial "Recolored" a couple of years ago it was free whilst in beta, I tried it then & it was quite good.

Cheers

Jim

[richardp@comsine.co.uk]

Hi Jim

Is it a function in its own right in Photoshop, or did you manually set the colours yourself?

cheers

Richard