Birth Certificates and Censuses

[Stephen White]

I've not been on the forum much in the past week or so.I've spent a frustrating few days trying to track down a birth certificate for my Great Grandfather.

Each time i get what i think is a possible match and i check it,nothing shows up (incorrect father),as this is all i have to go on,plus his place of birth.I am now reduced to moving forward in blocks of 6 months getting all the match's and paying Southport to look for me,in case of a late (or very late) registration of birth.

Also George and his father,Joseph do not show up in the 1881,1891 or 1901 census's.Although in the case of 1901,George was in South Africa when the census was taken.

In fellow forum members experience,how common is it for a birth never to be registered and/or for someone to not show up in any census ??.Or am i missing something blindingly obvious ??.

A very frustrated Steven

[NIGEL]

somebody up there hates us --------do you run over black cats when on your round ???

[jemimajane]

Also George and his father,Joseph do not show up in the 1881,1891 or 1901 census's.Although in the case of 1901,George was in South Africa when the census was taken.

In fellow forum members experience,how common is it for a birth never to be registered and/or for someone to not show up in any census ??.

I spent ages looking for my grandfathers birth certificate - surname Phillips. I eventually found it registered as PHILLPS.

With a surname of White (I assume?) - it won't be easy. (I have several common surnames in my family including Smith). In the early days of registration, missing births etc are quite common. As to the Census - the 1901 has a number of wrongly indexed names - i.e. Sutton was listed as Seton.I had similar problems with the 1881 one also.

If it helps, let me have some details and I'll see if I can find anything for you. I can't guarantee success!! I am still looking for a missing marriage in the 1840's.

[Annette Burgoyne]

It was law to fill in census forms and birth certificate BUT some people did not fill them in. I would think traveling families would not have filled them in.

[CROONAERT]

It was law to fill in census forms and birth certificate BUT some people did not fill them in.

There's not a single (male blood-line) relative of mine on any of the census' pre-1930's, even though I know exactly where and when many of them lived (same town from the 1870s to the present).

Dave.

[stephenh]

I have been told by an experienced geneaologist that lots of births 100+ years ago took place at home and thus were not registered. Nearest many got to the register office was the local boozer!!!

Stephen

[robwilliams]

Steven,

Do you have any idea as to where he was born, or where he may have been living? There are many mistakes in the transcriptions of the census (one of my wife's ancestors was SNEE, 1901 Census gives SULL). Sometimes you have to use your imagination when searching.

It would be very unusual in the period you are searching for a birth not to be registered.

Rob

[stevew]

There are definetly some of my ancestors who didn't fill in the 1901 census, can't say about the 1881, as I am awaiting some certificates to arrive. Even with the last census the 'officials' believe that at least 1million people didn't fill in the census. So it's anybodies guess how many failed to do 100 years ago!!

[Max]

So it's anybodies guess how many failed to do 100 years ago!!

People didn't fill in the census 100 tears ago, an army of enumerators went around on census night and knocked on doors, tent flaps, caravans, canal barges etc in fact anywhere where someone could live. It was much less likely that you could avoid the census then than it is now.

The literacy rate in the 19th century was not high and as a consequence the spelling of surnames was largely up to the enumerator (and the registrar in the case of birth, death and marriage registration), this lead to some bizarre variants. In the 1881 census my familys name was Daughtery. Within one town in West Yorkshire it was written by different enumerators as Daughtery, Dawtry, Daughtry, Dealtry and Daltry. Even the CWGC can't get my GGrandfathers name right, they have him down as Samual Doughtery Riding when it should be Sam(uel) Daughtery Riding.

Andy

[christine liava'a]

Looking at it from another angle, when did old age pensions begin to get paid in Britain, and how did people prove they were eligible?

In NZ, it was early 1900s, and you had to have either a birth or baptism, or ship of arrival in the country, to prove your age, consequently we have the Social Security files on film, with some proof of age

Do you have something similar to this?

[NIGEL]

i am steves cousin and have been doing the same research on our greatgrandad most of mine has been the births marriages etc,.---------but the problem is that its not just one person who doesnt show up where they should be in documents, there are serveral of our relations who disappear in documents and appear at different ages, i know our family may be strange but we have been stuck with no more info on our relatives before 1900 since october last year, can anybody help please

[Max]

Hello Nigel

There is one other possibility. My GGrandfather was born in 1880 and he and his 5 siblings were all illegitimate and took their mothers name. As a consequence my surname is Riding when I actually know that my male blood line is Daughtery. I have been lucky in that the fact that my GGrandfather was illegitimate was never a secret and his fathers name was known.

The amazing fact of the matter is, despite people whacking on about victorian values, a large number of 19th century northern mill towns were full of illegitimate kids. Nothing better to do I suppose

Andy

[Alison Arnold]

Steven,

I agree with Max. I have been looking for a relative's birth for over a year but this week I have found the record!! The problem was the 1881 and 1901 census both gave her birthplace as Liverpool but she was actually born in Scotland!!

On the image she is put as illegitimate and no father mentioned but the combination of surnames used by her mother tallys with her sisters English birth certificate.

Had you considered Scotland as a place of birth? There are 470 George White's listed between 1852 and 1902.

Hope this helps.

Don't lose heart you'll find them in the end!

[dycer]

Christine and All,

British Old Age Pensions introduced January 1909.

Means Teated and paid to over 70's of good character.

Administered by "Local Pensions Committees"(Now there is an organisation to conjure with!)

Called the "Lloyd-George Pension" and initially paid at 5 Shillings per week(0.25 p)

Unfortunately I have no further information on how claimants had to prove their age but the scheme became extremely popular.

George

[dycer]

I should have added that to claim a British Retirement Pension an applicant must produce their birth certificate.

I have not dealt with WW1 Veterans applications but immediately post-war when registering their children, Father's often added to their civilian occupation their war service Regiment on the child's birth certificate.To me this made interesting reading when dealing with the claim.

Copies of certificate were not kept and it is likely that earlier records of date of birth verification have long been destroyed.

Possiibly,though,there may be information of pension information in the PRO but I'll let one of the regulars ask.

George

[Stephen White]

Thanks everyone.to try and answer some of the questions raised here goes.

we are quessing at his year of birth his age on the CWGC is given as 38,when he got married in 1902 his age is given as 25.both work out at him being born around 1876/1877.this of course depends on both of these sources of information being right.

i got his fathers name (Joseph) and his fathers occupation (it LOOKS like bricklayer !!) off Georges wedding certificate.incidently by this time (MARCH 1902).his father is listed as deceased.

his place of birth i got from his entry in "Soldiers Died in the Great War",it says born St Georges,Birmingham.you may have seen another thread of mine asking where this information would have come from.it seems his service record !!.

this seems to be backed up by his daughters 1902 birth certificate which states St Georges,Birmingham.his wedding certificate shows him marrying in the neighbouring parish of St Stephens,he at this time lived on the border between the two parish's.the marriage occured 25 days AFTER the birth of their first child.the first childs (evelyn) birth wasn't registered until 26.04.1902 (52 days after birth).

i do know he won't appear in the 1901 census as he was in South Africa with the 6th Militia Battalion Royal Warwicks,they didn't arrive back in the uk until 31.05.1901.

that's it,thats all we have,but do you think we can find him,NO.sitting here at the moment trying to work out all the different ways you could possibly spell white,god my head hurts !!

Stephen

[Alison Arnold]

Steven,

Could this be your Joseph White?

Fron 1881 census:

Back 200 1 Great King Street, Birmingham

Joseph White lodger Married age 30 Occ Bricklayers labourer.

He was lodging with a David Morris and his wife. Sorry I didn't write the rest of the entry down.

Don't discount this straight away as I have come across this in my own research Father at one address and mother and children at another address (if you are really lucky!!) . If not mother and one child at one address and other children living with aunts and uncles.

Hope this helps

Ali

[Christina]

I know just how you feel. I paid GRO to do a 3year search on my Grandfather, Robert Tucker, they looked up six names and they didnt match with the father's name I had so they didnt go any further. I have checked the 1891/1901 census's cant find a Robert with father Edwin. The marriage certificate of Robert gives the father as Edwin and he has named one of his sons Robert Edwin. In desperation I got a researcher to try and find his service record for WW1 [a long shot seeing as I had no information other than he was wounded and lost a leg and he lived in Balham London] the search came back only with possibles, I was hoping to get a birth date off of that. I ordered the death certificate [1837 online told me it would have the date of birth on it] it came back with only age at death, I already knew all those details so I wasted my money. I have contacted the British Legion, the local council for his area, the pensions department. All to no avail, Robert could have been born on another planet for all the details I can find. I just keep plodding on in the hope one day I will find something. What is the full name of the person you are looking for, e-mail me with it, perhaps in my search for mine I may find yours, who knows!

Regards

Christina

[Stephen White]

Christina.

you've done two of the things i tried.i went to the PRO to look for his service records,in the hope i would be able to get his date of birth.unfortunately his records weren't amongst the surviving 30% (DESTROYED IN 1940).

i too ordered his death certificate in the mistaken believe it would give me his date of birth,but as you know it doesn't.so i'd paid my money to learn what i already know.

i have one hope left.i have since learnt that he saw service in South Africa,and was discharged in 1902 after getting back.so during another visit to the PRO i hope to find this earlier service record.maybe that will have his date of birth ??.

i do hope this turns up something,the last cheque i sent to the GRO to check a number of birth certificates was for £29.50 !!.

Steven

[Stephen White]

Steven,

Could this be your Joseph White?

Fron 1881 census:

Back 200 1 Great King Street, Birmingham

Joseph White lodger Married age 30 Occ Bricklayers labourer.

He was lodging with a David Morris and his wife. Sorry I didn't write the rest of the entry down.

Don't discount this straight away as I have come across this in my own research Father at one address and mother and children at another address (if you are really lucky!!) . If not mother and one child at one address and other children living with aunts and uncles.

Hope this helps

Ali

Thanks for this this WILL BE investigated.

Steven

[Guest danm_b2]

Hi steve, I know exactly how your feeling i've been doing my family tree for at least two years on and off, and I have relatives that were in the First World War and it is hard to track information down on them I mean I can be lucky having an old photograph of him but it doesn't tell you much. But this mite seem obvious try looking in simple places and asking relatives that might remember something or looking in houses that he used to live in, because really it could be anywhere.

[jemimajane]

Well, I've had a look at the 1891 census - I don't know if this is any help to you...

Reference RG12/2391 page 30

Birmingham St George/St Marys ecclesiasticl district

Snow Hill (The rest is not fully legible but seems to read 1Ct 3Ho)

Leah White - Head - widow- age 37- occupation steel pen worker - born Birmingham

George White - son - age 14 - occupation file cutter - born Birmingham

Emma Fowler - boarder - widow - age 71 - charwoman - born Birmingham

jemimajane

[Jackie]

Steven - did you manage to check out this census yet? If not, I've got a copy and I can do it for you, probably tomorrow.

[Guest lesley]

Steven,

according to our local studies dept, it was not uncommon to fail to register a birth. Harry Talmer, whom I'm currently researching was not registered, but appears on the 1901 census. What is strange is he came from a large family and all the other births were registered. Having an unusual surnamne meant I have searched records for the whole of England over a number of years and variety of spellings to no avail. However don't give up information sometime appears in the strangest of places

Good Luck

[Stephen White]

Thank you to all those who have offered help/advice/encouragement.i was begining to think we were doing something wrong.but reading the postings the problems that Nigel and I have encountered are not uncommon and a lot of you have had the same problems.

we've been given a couple of good leads Alibee and Jemimajane (thanks),looks good so far,will keep you posted on what we turn up ??

Thanks again

Steven