JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Hi, I'm a newbie to posting but have found a great deal of info from the site so a huge thankyou first off. I'm researching my family tree and have started looking at Military Service. I think I may have to ask a fair few questions but, as a starting point, can anyone please identify the regiments of these two men please? The photos will enlarge when clicked upon - I hope that's ok. We think they may actually be the same person in different uniforms? If so, his name is William McGrath and he was born in Durham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 First, welcome to the Forum. There are always plenty of helpers around. Second, it may be me, but when I clicked, the pics stayed the same, so it is hard to see any detail. Can you try with a larger version? Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Welcome to the forum. The picture did resize for me when I clicked it and judging from the shape and size of the badge in the first photo it would appear to be Royal Engineers. No idea what the second one is though, not even sure it's a cap badge, looks more like a button. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 The first doesn't look like Royal Engineers to me and his uniform doesn't look 'right' either. One of our uniform experts will no doubt tell us but I suspect it is not Great War British issue. It's the belt that looks wrong to me. And that doesn't look like a badge in pic two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 No shoulder straps on the uniform in picture one. |Not sure about the badge and the belt is odd. May not be a military uniform. Second picture doesn't look like a regimental or corps badge on the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2008 The first doesn't look like Royal Engineers to me and his uniform doesn't look 'right' either. One of our uniform experts will no doubt tell us but I suspect it is not Great War British issue. It's the belt that looks wrong to me. And that doesn't look like a badge in pic two. Wow - dodgy uniforms eh? It gets even more intriguing. Looking forward to seeing the opinions of others too... If it helps, the secnd picture - the uniform from the collar down is exactly the same as in picture 1 except he's wearing puttees. It's a postcard photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 My guess is Royal Flying Corps, Royal Naval Air Service or RAF. (The button capbadge appears to have an eagle on it). Can you reveal the man's name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Hi first one RFC or RAF and the second one is a petty officer in the Royal Naval Air Service Give me ten minutes and I'll scan an original John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Here is the scan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2008 We believe he is William McGrath born around 1900 in Durham City. The back of the photo has a message to his sister and this is the only way that we can trace it back to him. They both look like the same man to me but obviously with different cap badges. We originally thought that he was in the 24th Tyneside Irish but the badges aren't right for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 I think the first one without shoulder straps is very early RAF-the RFC would have worn the Maternity jacket or the army service dress which had shoulder straps. as far as I know the RNAS wore either naval uniform or ordinary service dress. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Could William McGrath have been born in Ireland? There is the following man listed in the Royal Naval Papers at the National Archives whose F prefix indicates service with the RNAS. McGrath, William Harold Official Number: F52207 Place of Birth: Dublin, Dublin 17 October 1899 ADM 188/644 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Could William Mgrath have been born in Ireland? There is the following man listed in the Royal Naval Papers at the National Archives whose F prefix indicates service with the RNAS. McGrath, William Harold Official Number: F52207 Place of Birth: Dublin, Dublin 17 October 1899 ADM 188/644 Unfortunately not. He was born in Durham City, as was his father William Denis. His grandfather Michael was born in Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 William Mcgrath 24/1106 C Company 1st TI, quebec street langley park was KiA 1/7/16 and is commemorated on the Thiepval memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 There was a Michael McGrath 245385 5th DLI resident at 2 John Street Belmont just a mile from Durham any relation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2008 William Mcgrath 24/1106 C Company 1st TI, quebec street langley park was KiA 1/7/16 and is commemorated on the Thiepval memorial That could be him! What does 1st TI stand for please? His parents died in 1905 and he must have been taken in by family or someone but not sure who. As for Michael McGrath - it could be a definite possibility as the whole family were from Belmont. Thankyou so much for taking the time out for me. Just realised - Tyneside Irish. Now that makes perfect sense as the family were real Irishmen apparently and had very strong beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 TI = Tyneside Irish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Well, if that's him then the story is even more tragic than I thought possible. When William was about 5 his mother died. His father killed himself 3 months later. The 3 children were split and 'dragged' up between various families throughout their childhood and my Great Grandma was a very bitter woman for it. My Granda suffered for it when he was young too. Obviously, William joined up as he had no family and nothing else unless he was conscripted of course. I've just read the battalion history and he died on the very first day of his active service at the Battle of the Somme less than 2 miles from where he started at 0730 the same day. I am 37 and am just starting to realise the true horror of this war. This should be drummed into us as children so we never, ever forget. I've already discovered the true horrors of WW2 and this is unreal. Researching my family tree has been an emotional experience all round and I know there's more to come. I teach challenging teenagers and WW1 will be my next major project with them - they just haven't got a clue. Sorry for the rant I just had to get that off my chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 Jacqui, You should read my book "Tyneside Irish" you should be able to get it through the library lending system. William had been in France since January but 34th Div had been holding the line in the Armentieres area. 1st TI were mainly made up of Durham Miners as were the other three TI battalions. He was NOT CONSCRIPTED, he was a volunteer in November 1914. There is an artical in the Durham Chronicle where he is listed in the first hunndred from Durham City to join the 1st TI. My relatives from D Company are all in the same article "Splendid response from Durham" If you need any background let me know. Sgt Dominic McShane was another Langley Prk man killed with them that day who is in the same list. I don't know if he is on Langley Park War Memorial If your not local to Durham I can go and look and take a photo if hes on it, thats if you want. regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquiFarrell Posted 23 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2008 I'm not far from Durham so will take a look. I really need to find his service record to confirm it's him first. It seems too much of a coincidence for it not to be though. He must have only been about 17 when he died, if that. More like 16 so he must have lied about his age. I'll definitely look for your book in the library - I think it would be a fascinating read. Have you any idea about the best place to find his service record? There's no trace on Ancestry. Sadly, all of his relatives are dead so we've come across a major brick wall... Just found his medal card - he got the Victory Medal. No other info on there other than to confirm he was killed in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 January , 2008 Share Posted 23 January , 2008 We believe he is William McGrath born around 1900 in Durham City. The back of the photo has a message to his sister and this is the only way that we can trace it back to him. They both look like the same man to me but obviously with different cap badges. We originally thought that he was in the 24th Tyneside Irish but the badges aren't right for that. I am pretty sure that 'Tyneside Chinam' has it spot on with RFC/RAF (first pattern RAF badge was very similar in shape) and RNAS and they do look to be the same man. The tunic with its unusual cloth belt seems very much like the first pattern RAF to me as that was definitely self belted with no shoulder straps and issued around 1919 onwards. A possible scenario is that he was in the RNAS in the early part of the war (they were officially part of the RFC but after war breaking out pretty much refused to recognise it) and then later were absorbed by the RAF (the RFC and RNAS merged to form the RAF in April 1918, but both uniforms continued to be worn by the new organisation until new patterns could be both agreed and supplied). A key indicator of his RNAS provenance is the leather peak on his hat shown in both photos. This was not worn by the RFC and is very much a Naval style, although I am pretty sure it was later adopted in early pattern uniforms by the RAF too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Hello again Jaqui Michael McGrath's regimental number is quoted wrong on the Absentee Voter List which states 245385 5th DLI According to the War and Victory Medal Rolls he originally served with 1/8th Durham Light Infantry, he was then transferred to 1/9th Bn as 205385, then he must have been evacuated either wounded or sick and posted to 5th (Reserve) Battalion where he is at the end of 1917 early 1918 when he registers for his vote. He then gets sent back to France to serve with the 2nd Bn Durham Light Infantry. There is no additional info in the Absentee Voter List and the reference to 5th Battalion is not on the medal roll sheet so he must be in this country. Tyneside Irish is available in Durham City Reference Library in Clayport, attached is the nespaper cutting I wrote about last night regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 24 January , 2008 Share Posted 24 January , 2008 Sorry missed off he was numbered 3448 when serving with 1/8th Bn this was the Durham City Battalion. The number places him as a 1915 enlistment located 3446 on the 1914/15 Star roll but 3448 wasn't there so he may not have gone overseas until 1916. The six figure numbers were issued in early 1917. regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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