Hill 60

[stripeyman]

This photo waere taken by Mr G T Watson who took some of the 'Now' photographs for The series 'Twenty Years After'.

It was were taken in the late 1930's probably 1938. I have a large set of the negatives but many are not captioned.

[stripeyman]

Another of Mr Watsons photos showing a road near Ypres, note the light railway. Cannot make out

the sign on the left. any ideas ?

[johnreed]

I'm sure that it is on the Menin Road facing Menin just passed Hooge with the sign pointing in the direction of Chateau Wood, of course I could be wrong.

John

[Jack Sheldon]

I agree with John in principle. It is very similar to the 'now' photograph of the Menin Road shown on p 37 of The Western Front Then and Now, which is a view looking east where the road is still rising towards Hooge to the west of the hamlet. Unless the road has been substantially re-profiled since, it cannot be the turning to Westhoek, because that comes after the curve. A minor road cuts off to the left at the right sort of angle a couple of hundred metres short of the curve, but it is hard to imagine what it might have been signed at the time.

Jack

[warbuff1]

It appears to end with letters ES from what i can see. If somone who is photo expert knows how too(not me ) uses photoshop or similar and turn it into a negative shot then i think it may show up.

Wayne

[SiegeGunner]

Just had a play with the pic in Photoshop and I'm fairly sure it reads RUE DE ..... but can't get the last part.

[warbuff1]

Well i tried to and if zoom in it just makes it all blurred. If it was Rue de then it would be France not Belgium though

Wayne

[warbuff1]

Ok i correct myself on that just google mappd area and a few Rue's in and around Menen

Wayne

[warbuff1]

Ok i all googled out no idea where it pointing too..lol

Wayne

[jainvince]

The local Vicinal (Belgium roadside Tramway) went from Ieper (Ypres) to Menen via Geluwe and remained in service for passengers and goods until 1949 with the tracks lifted around 1952. This section of tramway, like the majority serving Ypres was not used during WW1. However, during that period new tramways were actually built behind the allied lines to replace lost routes or to provide vital reconnections. A map of these routes was published in a book on vicinals.

According to the Passchendale Map, the track single track tramway was along the south side of the road which would tie in with JohnReads suggestion. An extract of the map is enclosed. Also enclosed is a picture from an Australian website - apologies but cannot recall the source.

Bernard

Picture of steam train during WW1

[jainvince]

Picture source clearly www.awm.gov.au

[stripeyman]

Picture source clearly www.awm.gov.au

Thanks everyone for the info. It does make sense seeing the map.

I will get some more negatives scanned from the Watson collection that were taken in 1937/38, some have a brief discriptions

and others could be anywhere. However this Forum seems to be overflowing with expertise and I am sure the locations can be found.

Bob G

[Paul Reed]

Sorry, I don't think the photo is the Menin Road. It looks like Klein Zillebeke to me. Can you can the road sign in a higher dpi?

[stripeyman]

Sorry, I don't think the photo is the Menin Road. It looks like Klein Zillebeke to me. Can you can the road sign in a higher dpi?

Thats interesting.................

Now I know what 'dpi' stands for I will try to get the negative on a higher resolution by some-one who is more into

computers than I am.

[frie]

Hello,

I think it's Menin road. But I'm not sure...

My reasons: the Sign indicates usually no street but village, hamlet... In my opinion the picture was taken close to the entrance of Bellewaerde now, You can see the bigger house on the left of the picture, today there's a bigger house there). The road at the sign may be closed by Bellewaerde... On the right side you can see the electric tension line, (I thought I saw there's still one) and I think I can see the top of the churchtower of Geluveld (the triangle you may see above the woods on the right side.... )

[stripeyman]

Photo taken from the viewing tower on Hill 60 (circa1938) towards Ypres, note Larch Wood Cemetery on left..........Bob Grundy

[chris mccarthy]

I'm with Paul, I think the bend is to acute for the Menin Road.

[andrewrichards]

i agree with bob g klein zillebeke on the way back to ypres the bend is to acute for the menin rd

but this picture does ring bells i cant see any church

[andrewrichards]

i am also in doubt about the other picture it looks abit close to ypres to me but would fit a picture taken from the monument at sanctuary wood with the small cemetary in the fore ground looking back to ypres seems to close to be hill 60.

[jainvince]

The clue the location is the railway track on the right hand side of the road. It appears to be a Vicinal Line or roadside tramway. In this part of Belgium they were originally steam worked and then diesel but were not electrified.

Although much of the Vicinal network was severely damage during WW1, the network remains visible on the Allied Trench Maps. From a study of the TMs in the Ypres area, possible locations include the following BUT EXCLUDE Zillebeke as the Vicinal didn't pass through the village:

Locations may be

Route south to Kemmel and Beyond

1. Elzenwakke

Branch to Warneton

2. Maedelslede Farm on approach to Wytschaete

3. Nr Betlham Farm sth of Messines

4. In Warneton

Kemmel Br

5. Sth of Lindenhoek (near site of camp)

6. Nr Armour farm (nr site of Laynebok Camp)

North West of Ypres Line

7. Various locations toward Brielen

I'm not sure of the topography at these locations. Those with access to TMs can see the Vicinal as a hatching along one side of the road as in my earlier post.

BernardP

[Aurel Sercu]

Bob,

There hasn't been a single day in the past two or more weeks that I haven't cast a look at the photo trying to find out ... But unsuccessfully so far.

Is the bend in the road too acute for the one in the Menin Road near Zandberg (a little east of Bellewaarde) ? No idea, or not sure.

Also this :

- I am not sure that a church tower can be seen in the distance. Isn't it a tree top ?

- Some members suggested that the first word on the signpost could be Rue ... I think it is a little unlikely. Not only because it is in French, but also because we don't have signposts pointing to streets, only to towns, villages and hamlets.

- Sorry if I am nitpicking again at what I have been nitpicking at in another topic where negatives (of bunkers) were posted. But could you please confirm that the photo is not mirrored ? (I.e. that it was scanned glossy side up, which seems to be the correct way as you wrote in another Topic) ?

If it is mirrored, and if I re-mirror it (see below), then it seems to me - but I am not sure at all ! - that the photographer may have been standing a little east of the bend, facing Ypres (and Bellewaarde, beyond the bend). In that case the signpost could point to the village of Beselare (could be spelled as Becela(e)re at the time). And what may have looked like "Rue" before the name, could then be the distance (in km) following the name. The name of that road now (leading to Nonnebossen and Polygon Wood and then further to Beselare) is I think "Oude Kortrijkstraat".

Should it be possible to make a high(er) resolution scan of the signpost, then that could be useful.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Sorry, have been trying to post the mirrored photo a couple of times, but it just doesn't seem to work.

Trying again now.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Found ! At last.

Thanks also to a little help from (and motivation provided by) a former colleague ! (Thanks, Ludwich !

The location is as I had thought, and there is no doubt at all. 100% sure.

But the original photo at the beginning of this Topic has to be mirrored, as I did in my previous posting yesterday.

For those who know the area :

Menin Road, facing Ypres, at the "Zandberg" (highest point), 800 meters (1/2 mile east of Bellewaarde Theme Park) at where Euro Stock Center is. (The photo was taken near the parking lot.)

On trench maps the area is known as Clapham Junction. For those who are familiar with the local WW1 monuments : approx. 100 m behind me are the monuments of the 18th (Eastern) Division (south side of Menin Road) and Gloucesteshire Regiment Memorial (north side).

The corner house on the right side (at the time the 1939 photo was taken very probably a pub) is no longer there. (The bike is gone too. ;-) Vera, Ludwich's wife, had already pointed out that the photo had to be mirrored indeed, because then the way the bike is put against the wall is the 'normal' way, at least for right-handed people. On the other initial photo the bike could only have been put there by a left-handed person. Yes, it is said that women cannot read maps. Not only this is untrue (?), but no doubt women are observant when it comes to parked bikes ! ;-)

The gate at the corner has disappeared too. I wondered if the trees (or some of them) are still the ones on the photo, but I'm afraid trees are not my speciality. ;-(

The road to the right indeed as I thought is the "Oude Kortrijkstraat". It leads to Beselare (4.5 km / almost 3 miles), but at a fork also goes to Zonnebeke (3.5 km). And that explains why Ludwich had identified the first letter on the signpost as a Z (which he thought could have been the Z of Zillebeke as well, as at the time we were not sure if the original photo had been mirrored or not.)

Of course many houses have been built since the late 1930s, especially on the left (south) side of the road.

On the photo I posted yesterday (the mirrored version, which now proves to be the correct version) there are 5 electricity posts visible. Well, they are still there now, though probably no longer operational. (On the photo they cannot be seen because the trees block the view.)

The house at a distance in the bend is still there, exactly the same shape, hardly altered. (I'll post a photo of it after this.)

The vicinal line (tramway) is no longer there of course.

Well, I'm glad this puzzle has been solved, and that once again my fascination by Pictures Then and Now has been satisfied.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

And a pic taken closer to the bend.

Exactly the same. (The light may make it look a little different, but the B/W pic must have been taken in the late morning (considering the shadow of the house at the corner of the Oude Kortrijkstraat, whereas my pic was taken at 3 pm.)

Now it is a bar (pub). Name : Nutbush. (Though a little too far I think of the Ypres City Limits. )

Aurel

[Max]

i am also in doubt about the other picture it looks abit close to ypres to me but would fit a picture taken from the monument at sanctuary wood with the small cemetary in the fore ground looking back to ypres seems to close to be hill 60.

The distance from Hill 60 to Ypres is only about 3.5 miles. The cemetery on the left looks very much like Larch Wood as it is directly next to the railway...in my view, definately Hill 60. (I think that Sanctuary Wood is as close, if not closer to Ypres than Hill 60)