Der 15 Reserve Division

[wyliecoyote]

Can anyone tell me where the 15th Reserve Division was on 9 April 1915? I am trying to place L.I.R. 87.

Thanks!

[Jack Sheldon]

Where did you get the numbers? 15th Res Div comprised RIRs 25 and 69, forming 30 Res Inf Bde and RIRs 17 and 30, forming 32 Res Inf Bde. Later RIR 30 moved to 25 Landwehr Div when that formed up on 16 Sep 1916. I cannot find a trace that a Landwehr Inf Regt 87 existed. Are you sure about it? It would not be RIR 87 of 21st Res Div by any chance?

Jack

[wyliecoyote]

Happy New Year Jack!

Landwehr Inf. Regt. 87 was stationed in Mainz / Worms, not sure off the top of my head which btns.were barracked where..

You will enjoy this cancellation of a postcard of a soldat from the 12th Kompanie:

Geo

[Jack Sheldon]

OK You win. Leave it with me. Back to the drawing board.

Jack

[bob lembke]

Geo;

The PC is not absolute proof that LIR 87 was part of RID 15. It is possible that LIR 87 was not affiliated with a division at that time, and the PC was routed from the postal office of the regiment to the PO of the division for insertion in to the distribution system of the military mail system. First of all, I do not think that reserve divisions, that early in the war, would generally have had Landswehr regiments inserted into them. That probably became a common practice when the traditional square divisions were broken up to produce the new triangular divisions, generally in mid-1916, I think.

To support the idea that a unit did not need to belong to a high-level (e.g. divisional) PO to have mail routed thru and stamped by it, one of my father's PCs from Stenay-sur-Meuse has, as its final stamping at the highest level PO (that stamp either always or 99+% the round stamp as depicted), stamping in the post office of the Oberkommando von 5. Armee, not the Army PO (if there was one), but the PO of CP Willy's own HQ. All of his other postings from Stenay went thru another, more conventional PO. My guess is that he was in Stenay and went to the HQ PO and posted the card himself. His unit was not part of the Oberkommando.

Another clue is the Absender Block seen on the PC. It lists the sender, his rank (Gefreiter), his company (12.), and the LIR 87, but no higher level unit. I have or have studied some hundreds of Feldpost PCs, and I do not recall ever having seen a proper Prussian-style Absender Block (for example, the Bavarian Army did not require one) that did not identify the division (and sometimes the brigade) or another high-level unit. My father, not being in a division, usually added "5. Armee", if memory serves. To me this strongly suggests that LIR 87 did not belong to 15. RD or any other division, at least at that time. Perhaps the regiment was being formed at that time, which was early in the war.

If anyone is really interested in these postal matters, the German stamp collecting society has a "working group" of about 100 members (five years ago) from various countries on German Feldpost. I don't know it it is only on WW I, or covers WW II as well. In a moment of madness I almost joined. They issue a 50 page newsletter four times a year; being German, it always seems to be exactly 50 pages, not 48 or 52, for example. Back then membership was only about $25 a year.

Bob Lembke

[Jack Sheldon]

I have scratched around a bit this evening, but have not been able to come to any definite conclusion: except to say that if this card went through 15th Res Div on that date, then it was posted somewhere in Champagne. That does not get us further forward really. The constituent regiments of this division were Prussian, from the Rhineland as you mentioned, so the best hope is going to be an examination of the only available history, which was that of RIR 17. Alas, I do not have a copy, but perhaps someone has access to one and may be able to cast more light on the problem. I can also still find no indication that a Landwehr Regiment 87 was ever part of an established fighting formation, so the presence of a 3rd Bn soldier somewhere near 15th Res Div at that time presents another mystery.

Jack.

[wyliecoyote]

Jack

Champagne area is a start, gives me France, Westfront.

Bob

Thanks for the info.

Geo

[Ken S.]

I hope this will help shed some light on the situation. The discussion on the following thread deals with LIR 87 to a certain extent:

http://forum.ahnenforschung.net/thread.php?threadid=7993

If I'm reading the discussion in this thread correctly, III./RIR17 became II./LIR87:

http://www.milex.de/forum/einheitenShow.ht...sageNummer=1323

[keith@colourplus]

its all greek to me - or some other lingo...

they made me do Latin and French at school...

I did spot a 'hallo' but I doubt if that's the answer.

any chance of a precis of the info..I'm quite interested in this thread?

merci danke

Ta very much

Llandodlad

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

From what I can put together the 15th Reserve Division was north of Massiges and of Mesnil les Hurlus in the Champagne. The 87th Landwehr Regiment was part of the 12th Landwehr Division that was formed in late April 1915.

The 87th Landwehr Regiment was originally part of the 92nd Reserve Brigade, an Independent Brigade up to that point and was joined by the 436th Landwehr Regiment. The 87th Landwehr Regiment consisted of the I and IV Bn of the 87th LIR as well as the V Bn of the 76th LIR from the XVIII ans IX Corps Districts.

Considering the date of your inquiry it is quite possible that as an independent unit the 87th LIR was in the vicinity of the 15th Reserve Division as support possibly in the Champagne before being sent to the 12th Landwehr Division. I have a few other sources to review to see if there is any mention of the movement of these units as I recall there was a great deal of movement about this time in order to meet various threats along the front. I will post further if I come across them.

Ralph

[Jack Sheldon]

Thanks for the tip about 12th Landwehr Division, Ralph. My eye had skidded too quickly over its constituent parts when I was first checking. Unfortunately I do not think that it can be part of the explanation and I also have some problem over the explanation concerning 92 Reserve Brigade.

Dealing with 92 Reserve Brigade first: When 46th Reserve Division formed up on 10 Sep 1914, its infantry component comprised 91 and 92 Reserve Brigades. 92 Reserve Brigade was formed up from RIRs 214 and 216 + Reserve Jaeger Battalion 18. No mention as far as I can see of Landwehr IR 87 or any independent role for 92 Reserve Brigade. As far as I can tell, IR 436, raised late in the war, was part of the infantry component of 4th Cavalry Division - certainly it is listed, together with Landwehr IRs 38 and 40, in an ORBAT of 10 June 1918

Now for 12th Landwehr Division and LIR 87 in particular. The division, also apparently known as Landwehr Division Kehler (presumably after the commander), seems to have formed on 13 Apr 1915 and to have moved immediately into the battles in the extreme south around the Hartmannsweilerkopf. However its second brigade (82 Landwehr Infantry Brigade) was made up of LIR 40 and a composite Landwehr Infantry Regiment, comprising the following units: V./76 and I. and IV./87, together with Feld MG Platoons 20 and 21, Festungs MG Trupp B (from Neubreisach) and various other odds and sods. Note that this does not seem to have been called LIR 87 and there is no mention of an active role for that regiment as an entity anywhere in the listings of divisional ORBATS (not that that document is 100% reliable).

Presumably this means that LIR 87 also had, at least. II./87 and III./87 as units under command and because, especially early in the war, these Landwehr battalions were used in various quite independent roles I agree with Ralph that it is entirely feasible that 12th Company's battalion was in the Champagne, reinforcing 15th Res Div for a particular operation or other duty - and hence was not available when the composite regiment formed up and so could not form part of it. Interesting to note, 3rd Bn LIR 87 (the one on the postcard) turns up as an independent unit and part of the attached troops for XVII Army Corps, Eighteenth Army on 18 Mar 1918, so it does not look as though it ever was part of 12th Landwehr Division.

Jack

[wyliecoyote]

This is turning out to be one interesting thread!

Thanks for the info guys!

Geo

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Glad to be of help Jack, I expect we will solve this before too long.

In just a little further in checking sources I came across what is probably a good reason for the Feldpost marks. The 87th Landwehr Regiment was formed in the XVIII Army Corps District, the garrison town was Höchst.

In checking the XVIII Corps Landwehr regiments it mentions that the 2nd Battalion of the 87th was the 3rd Battalion of the 17th Reserve Regiment of the 15th Reserve Division and the 3rd Battalion of the 87th was the 3rd Battalion of the 30th Reserve Regiment in the 16th Reserve Division. These divisions were in the VIII Army Corps District.

Since these battalions were part of the 15th Reserve Division and the sister division it is quite probable that either one company or companies were transferred as needed, used a neighboring Feldpost station, etc. but it is evident your unit was in the right vicinity in order to have the stamp. I expect the 2nd Battalion companies of the 87th were renumbered as the 9-12th Companies of the 17th Reserve Regiment.

The finer points of unit stamps, identities, etc. can be confusing at times. I hope that this helps a bit.

Ralph

[SiegeGunner]

In checking the XVIII Corps Landwehr regiments it mentions that the 2nd Battalion of the 87th was the 3rd Battalion of the 17th Reserve Regiment of the 15th Reserve Division and the 3rd Battalion of the 87th was the 3rd Battalion of the 30th Reserve Regiment in the 16th Reserve Division. These divisions were in the VIII Army Corps District.

Run that one past me again – slowly ...

[Ken S.]

Another discussion that may be of interest:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php...ltz&start=0

[Paul Hederer]

a good summary of the various parts of LIR87:

Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 87 (Vier Bataillone)

Aufgestellt in Mainz (R.Stb., I., II., III.) und Worms (IV.)

Unterstellung: Besatzung Mainz, 41. gem. L.Brig

Kommandeur: Oberst z. D. Schramme (Bez.-Kdr. Soest)

I.:

II.: Oberstleutnant z. D. v. Zülow (Bez.-Kdr. Erbach)

III.: Major a. D. Buddecke

IV.: Major a. D. Baur de Betaz

Der Stab des L.I.R.Nr. 87 wurde gem. K. M. v. 7.2.15 aufgelöst, da die Bataillone eine andere Verwendung fanden.

Das II./L.I.R.Nr. 87 und das III./L.I.R.Nr. 87 sowie das seit Oktober 1914 zugeteilte IV./L.I.R.Nr. 76 traten im Dezember 1914 zur 6. Armee.

Das I./L.I.R.Nr. 87 und das IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87 sowie das seit Oktober 1914 zugeteilte V./L.I.R.Nr. 76 blieben zunächst beim Gen.-Gouvernement Belgien. Sie bildeten Anfang 1915 bei der 12. L.Div. das Regiment Moß, dessen Stab im Mai 1915 etatisiert wurde.

Das II./L.I.R.Nr. 87 wurde im März 1915 das III./R.I.R.Nr. 17 (s. S. 15), das III./L.I.R.Nr. 87 wurde zum gleichen Zeitpunkt das III./R.I.R.Nr. 30 (s. S. 18) und das IV./L.I.R.Nr. 76 wurde im Sommer 1915 das III./R.I.R.Nr. 69. (s. S. 61)

Das V./L.I.R.Nr. 76 wurde das II./L.I.R.Nr. 87 (s. S. 61), das IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87 wurde das III./L.I.R.Nr. 87.

Somit bestand das neu zusammengesetzte L.I.R.Nr. 87 aus dem

I./L.I.R.Nr. 87

II./L.I.R.Nr. 87 (vorher V./L.I.R.Nr. 76)

III./L.I.R.Nr. 87 (vorher IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87)

Cheers,

Paul

[Jack Sheldon]

Well that clears that up then. I wonder if somebody could now kindly find and post us a nice easy one (pardon the pun). En passant, I still cannot get a firm grip on what LIR 87 as a formed entity actually did. Ken's tip about the Ostsee Division was interesting but, according to the documents I have to hand, the only element of 12th Landwehr that was part of it was the divisional staff. The remainder of the ORBAT looks nothing like the one quoted. It is made up of odds and sods of all kinds and operated in Finland. Not surprising really. If the regiments had been unchanged, why alter the name? I suspect that the formations of 12th Landwehr were broken up in Galicia during the winter 1917 - 1918 and the manpower, possibly in formed battalions, (see my previous point about the 3rd Bn) were used somewhere in the west.

Jack

[wyliecoyote]

You really have to love "Formationsgeschichte der deutschen Infanterie im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914-1918"

by Hartwig Busche!

Paul, was bedeutet etatisiert auf Englisch, bitte? Auch immobil?

Busche comments that L.I.R. 87 was intended as a fortress crew. Then goes on to say the I & IV Btns. (IV including 12th Ko.) was assigned to L.I.R.76 as the Vth Btn.(listed as the only Landwehr Regt. with 5 btns.) in Oct 1914, and was assigned to the General Government of Belgium. They formed at the beginning of 1915 with the 12. L.Div., the regiment Moss. No mention of the 15th Res. Div.

The V.btn./L.I.R.Nr. 76 became the II.btn./L.I.R.Nr. 87 (S.P. 61 what is this?), the IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87 became the III./L.I.R.Nr. 87.( When is not mentioned).

Then again the re-constituted L.I.R.Nr. 87 consisted of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd btns.

These guys were like horse feathers, all over the place! ! ! ! Whew. Thanks for the info guys!