Army Service Corps in Egypt and Gallipoli

[dtreacher]

Exact_copy_of_medal_roll_2_for_Arthur_Kotch_from_National_Archives.doc

My Grandfather AHV (Arthur Hedley Victor) Kotch served in the ASC but I am missing some information which I hope you can help with. I have downloaded 2 medal rolls of which one is attached-the other for the territorial medal added little.He appears to have been with the Wessex Divisional Train in the Horsed Transport section. However, can I ascertain:

When Arthur joined up and was he a volunteer or a conscript? Probably volunteer I thought.Can I find out which company he was in (and is this helpful?)From the medal record, would Arthur have already been a Corporal when landed in Egypt? Can I find out when he was promoted to Serjeant?Egypt was his disembarkation point for Gallipoli but did he get there? Could he have been stationed thereI know that the Divisional train went to France after Gallipoli but did Arthur go with them?When did he actually leave the Army? Presumably before 31^st March, 1920 when the Class Z status was stopped Is there any more information available that I could research?

I really hope someone can help, if only to point me in the right direction for further research?

Regards

David

[Coldstreamer]

welcome

have you tried the ancestory site or the national archives for his papers ?

[sotonmate]

David

Phew ! I will try to help you onto a track or two.

You MIGHT be lucky to get hold of his service record at Kew,if it was one of the 30% or so which survived the Luftwaffe. If it is there it would be in microfilm spool WO363/K668 which is where the surname of KOTCH would reside if you WERE lucky. That would answer quite a few of your questions.

I detect that you may have already been reading in the Long Long Trail at top left of this page,but I will point it out anyway for all it's priceless value to us.

Looking at his MIC,the Theatre 3 equates to Egypt,normally 2B for Gallipoli,but we won't argue there as his Division, 29,was,with my Great Uncle,definitely there ! You might care to get a look at the War Diary for his Divisional Train (246/247/248 and 249 Companies ASC),it is under WO95/4309 and covers April to Nov 1915. The LLT then suggests that the Train returned to Egypt for service with 53rd Division in March 1916. 246 to 249 Coys then became part of a War Diary for that Division from June 1916 to May 1919,with a Theatre of Egypt,Palestine and Syria.

The 29th Division on return to Europe then had 225/226/227 and 228 Companies ASC as it's Divisional Train and there is another War Diary from March 1916 to October 1919 under WO95/2297.

I will leave you to digest this,my interpretation of the ins-and-outs of the ASC,and will do a bit more delving.

Welcome to the Forum and enjoy your headaches whilst unravelling your scenarios !

Best wishes

Sotonmate

PS I think that he left the Army on 16.4.1919 when the MIC says he went to the Z list. Also he is shown as a Staff Sergeant so you might be looking for 2 promotions from Corporal.

[sotonmate]

David

To give you a range of ledgers in which the original Medal Rolls were filed,and which might give you a Company number for your man:

WO329/1964 to 2070 for the British war and Victory Medals,and,

WO329/2875 to 2905 for the 1914-1915 Star.

To get the right ledger you have to de-code the numbers and letters on your MIC from a list kept in another folder or two at Kew !

Sotonmate

[dtreacher]

Thanks Coldstreamer-no luck with on line search for his papers but I understand more are going on-line during 2008. I gather the odds are against me though. Looks like a trip to Kew might be called for.

[dtreacher]

Thank you Sotonmate,

Both your replies have given me fresh impetus for which thanks. As I said to Coldstreamer a trip to Kew is likely. But if I could ask another couple of questions based on my ignoranceof the army.

1.You picked out that the Wessex was linked to the 29th-is it definitely correct that this was the Divisional Train for the 29th?

2.Do you think that it is safe to assume that he did go to Gallipoli-or could he have been kept in Egypt as part of the supply effort?

I will definitely try to check out the war diaries you mentioned

3. I'm not sure what Coys were-could you explain?

4. If I can't find his service record, does this close off all avenues to ascertaing his company?

5. What would have been the 2 possible promotions between Corporal and Staff Serjeant? 2nd Corp and Serjeant?

Thanks also for spotting the likely de-mob date - I hadn't understood this!

I have a few things that make Kew impossible for a couple of weeks but I think I read that it's closed anyway.

The speed of your response was great. If any more thoughts occur to you I would be delighted to hear from you.

Thanks again

David

[sotonmate]

David

Your questions answered:

1.Not only did the Long Long Trail link the Wessex Divisional Train to the 29th Division,so did the National Archives !

2.I have to say that I think the Divisional Train was actually at Gallipoli,it was their responsibility to keep the logistics going for the whole Division and they couldn't do all of that from Egypt. They might have left some elements in Egypt but I think they would have needed most of them on site. See here what they had to do:

http://www.1914-1918.net/logistics/ASC_HT_Train_Coys.htm

3.Coy is short for Company, an Army abbreviation.

4. It would be a blow to getting all the details that a full service record would bring,but you might be able to find out which Company he was in elsewhere,such as the Medal Rolls,or asking any current RASC museum or archive what they keep from WW1.

5. I meant the two promotions would have been from Corporal to Sergeant and then Sergeant to Staff Sergeant.

Best wishes

Sotonmate

[sotonmate]

David

Your questions answered:

1.Not only did the Long Long Trail link the Wessex Divisional Train to the 29th Division,so did the National Archives !

2.I have to say that I think the Divisional Train was actually at Gallipoli,it was their responsibility to keep the logistics going for the whole Division and they couldn't do all of that from Egypt. They might have left some elements in Egypt but I think they would have needed most of them on site. See here what they had to do:

http://www.1914-1918.net/logistics/ASC_HT_Train_Coys.htm

3.Coy is short for Company, an Army abbreviation.

4. It would be a blow to getting all the details that a full service record would bring,but you might be able to find out which Company he was in elsewhere,such as the Medal Rolls,or asking any current RASC museum or archive what they keep from WW1.

5. I meant the two promotions would have been from Corporal to Sergeant and then Sergeant to Staff Sergeant.

Best wishes

Sotonmate

[dtreacher]

Thanks again.

Now I know what a Coy is!

I did find another topic on troopships used in Gallipoli which I contacted. Wondered if there might be a troop register.

Think the next step is Kew to try and find the Company info as you have outlined. They are closed this week. I will let you know how matters progress.

Regards

David