Julius Bank.On parents headstone as lost at sea enemy action. Not on C

[Hywyn]

I have recorded the fact that Julius Bank is commemorated on his parents headstone at Felinheli, North Wales. It states that he died at sea through enemy action on Aug 3rd 1918 aged 37 years.

I cannot see him on CWGC.

I have tracked him down on Ancestry to that village in the 1881 Census (Julius M Bank) and a Birth registered locally that matches ( Julius Mathias Bank ) and then found nothing in the UK (Census, death )

However on the US bits (which I can only partially access with my subscription) I see there is a Julius M Bank in the US Passport Application (1795-1925) and a Julius Bank b 1881 in the 1910 Census for Rutland.

How could I find if he is an US casualty on or around that date.

Is there anyone with Ancestry US subscription that can provide further details re the above two entries?

TIA

Hywyn

[eviltaxman]

Hywyn,

I've checked your findings and agree that there is a Julius Bank in Rutland, Vermont (in 1910).... but did you notice that many of his neighbours were also Welsh? It looks like he was working in a "State Quarry".

However I've also found an entry for a Julius Matthew Bank on the New York passenger lists showing arrival as 20 Dec 1917 having left Liverpool docks, BUT (big but!!) the passport application I've found clearly states he's Welsh by birth and has lived in the US (Rutland, Vermont) for 16 years from 1898 to 1914.

Rather than list the full entry, I've saved a copy of the image and can e-mail it on if needed.... just PM me your e-mail.

Les.

[John_Hartley]

I suspect we're looking at the sinking of the Hospital Ship Warilda here. 123 lost according to my Google

John

[SiegeGunner]

I've checked your findings and agree that there is a Julius Bank in Rutland, Vermont (in 1910).... but did you notice that many of his neighbours were also Welsh? It looks like he was working in a "State Quarry".

Forgive the stereotyping, Les, but could that be a "slate quarry" ...?

[eviltaxman]

Yep - my bad! It is slate NOT state.... I've got new glasses and I'm trying to break 'em in

Les

[Hywyn]

Les

PM sent. Thanks.

I didn't see any neighbours as I only got his record up and that was only partial. Felinheli was the slate port of the rather large Dinorwig Slate Quarries nearby.

John thanks for the steer re the Warilda. I've put her name through Geoffs Machine but with a nil return. Having said that I wouldn't get any US casualties in the returns I suppose. I'll have an in depth look later when the hangover clears.

It certainly looks quite strongly that he was by that time an US Citizen.

I have no idea how to search for US casualties.

Hywyn

[John_Hartley]

He's not listed by the American Battle Monuments Commission. Their website.

he's not amongst the GRO Overseas Deaths listing either.

I suppose your next step might to to try and track his life in the US and see if you can tie the man to an enlistment. Now then, I dunno how to do that and I think you need an "expert". The Rock God in these matters is "Bottsgreys" and it'll be worth dropping Chris a PM/email seeking his advice.

John

[Hywyn]

Thanks for the link John and, as you point out, he is not on that. I had a look around the site. Am I right in assuming that the US Navy is represented?

I'll have a review of what I have when Les sends me the US Ancestry info.

Just to cover all aspects would you be able to check the UK Overseas index for 1918? (please)

[Hywyn]

Oops I see that you've done the Overseas Index. I blame my hangover.

I've also had another look at Geoffs machine. I had searched in the wrong section. Still no trace of him though.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Or perhaps a trawlerman or someone on a passenger boat (passenger or crew). None of these would necessarily be commemorated by the CWGC.

[Crunchy]

I suspect we're looking at the sinking of the Hospital Ship Warilda here. 123 lost according to my Google

One of the dead was reported as an American See here http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...amp;oref=slogin

[Hywyn]

Jim

Yes, it had occured to me that he might have been a passenger on a boat etc. I would have expected to see him in the Death Registers (UK). I'll explore Ancestry further to see if there are any US Death indices.

Crunchy

Thanks for the link. A vivid account of the sinking. Are you able to search the NY Times archives? If so could you possible search the name Julius Bank please.

Thanks

hywyn

[Crunchy]

Hywyn,

Sorry, I don't have access to the NY Times archives. I googled Warilda, Maritime casualties, etc and came up with a few hits but haven't found a Julius Banks yet.

Regards

Chris

[John_Hartley]

few hits but haven't found a Julius Banks yet.

Chris

Hope it isnt throwing the searching but, from the OP, I think the name is Bank, not Banks.

John

[Crunchy]

Thanks John. I don't have access to many research tools, just seeing if I could assist via your pointer to Warilda, which I think could be the key to the search.

Regards

Chris

[Hywyn]

OK Chris, thanks for having a look.

John. Which Observation Post are you viewing from? Mind the snipers. :-)

[BottsGreys]

I noticed in checking the passport application for him dated Feb. 24, 1916, his occupation is machinist, and that he had gone to the UK from the U.S. to work as a marine engineer on vessels of the Elder Dempster Line. It would seem to indicate that he was lost as a ship's crewman.

Chris

[Hywyn]

Hi Chris

I agree. Les (Eviltaxman) has kindly sent me the said Passport Form which I have now studied. I see that, although a naturalised US Citizen, he was this side for a few years 14-17. I have found a marriage in Liverpool in the 1st Qtr 1916 that may be him.

The Elder Dempsey Line seems to be a British line working out of Liverpool. Insofar as his date and mode of death is concerned all I have is what it says on the headstone. There seems to be only the aforementioned Warilda sunk on that date althought there are a few others either sides which I'll have a look at.

I would have expected him to be on the UK Death records and i will review that angle and look in other years etc.

Do you have online access to US Death index for that date? I cannot readily see him on Ancestry.

Hywyn

[BottsGreys]

Hywyn:

Haven't been able to find anything reHis death yet. Noticed on the passport application that his permanent residence was then at Detroit, Michigan. As you may have seen, the Dec. 20, 1917, ship "New York" passenger list that ETaxman found above shows Bank not as a passenger, but as a crewman (Junior 3rd Assistant Engineer).

Will keep looking,

Chris

[John_Hartley]

Chris

Looks like he might have been serving on an American merchant vessel then? Are there any websites your side of the pond which would indicate US vessels lost on the date? The only thing I'm finding on Google are references to Brit ships.

John

[SiegeGunner]

The Elder Dempsey Line seems to be a British line working out of Liverpool.

"Elder Dempster Line", I think – in case anyone is searching the name.

[BottsGreys]

John:

August 3, 1918: Muriel, schooner, gross 120 tons; sunk with bombs by German submarine U-156, 45 miles west by north of Seal Island, Nova Scotia.; no casualties.

August 3, 1918: Sydney B. Atwood, schooner, gross 100 tons; sunk with bombs by German submarine U-156, 30 miles east of Seal Island, Nova Scotia; no killed.

August 3, 1918: Annie Perry, schooner, gross 116 tons; sunk with bombs by German submarine U-156, 30 miles east of Seal Island, Nova Scotia; no casualties.

August 3, 1918: Rob Roy, gas screw, gross 112 tons; sunk with bombs by German submarine U-156 in western Atlantic 35 miles east of Seal Island, Nova Scotia; no casualties.

August 3, 1918: Steamship Lake Portage, gross 1,998 tons; torpedoed and sunk by enemy submarine (UB type) 4.5 miles south of Audierne, France; 3 killed, 6 burned.

August 3, 1918: Steamship Berwind, gross 2,589 tons; torpedoed and sunk by enemy submarine (UB type) entrance to English Channel; 6 killed

See this site:

https://www.usmm.org/ww1merchant.html#anchor231034

Chris

[eviltaxman]

Just to really confuse the issue!!! Although the Warilda is better known because it's a troop/medical ship, if we assume that he was aboard a "private" vessel, i.e. merchant, there are 2 other possibilities -

August 3, 1918: Steamship Lake Portage, gross 1,998 tons; torpedoed and sunk by enemy submarine (UB type) 4.5 miles south of Audierne, France; 3 killed, 6 burned.

August 3, 1918: Steamship Berwind, gross 2,589 tons; torpedoed and sunk by enemy submarine (UB type) entrance to English Channel; 6 killed.

This info was listed under "U.S. Merchant Ships, Sailing Vessels, and Fishing Craft Lost from all Causes during World War I" at this website --> US ships lost in WW1

Les

[BottsGreys]

Here is a New York Times article (lower part of article.) mentioning the loss of the Berwind and Lake Portage, unfortunately, no crew names.

Chris

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...FBE668383609EDE

[John_Hartley]

Well, my first thought was that he might have still been serving on an Elder Dempster ship. Whilst the company lost several ships during the war, there was only one in 1918, where there were fatalities. Unfortunately, it was in the January - and, by of those co-incidences that I just love, it was the SS Hartley!

Hywyn - assuming he was serving on some Brit ship or another, it might be worth you contacting the archives of the Maritime Museum at Liverpool. Dunno what they might have but worth a phone call, I'd have thought.

It is always possible, of course, that whilst he was killed by enemy action, the action didnt sink the ship, so it's not in the various lists.

John