uniform identification please

[edward humphreys]

i received the attached photograph this morning which was taken in a studio at 79 union street in plymouth the subject i believe to be percival hartley barr of dalton-in-furness, lancashire could some kind person assist as to the regiment or unit many thanks ted humphreys

[squirrel]

Nice picture but nothing visible to show what regiment it might be.

[Muerrisch]

I am not an equipment or accoutremaents expert but the belt does not look kosher for period?

[john gregory]

i received the attached photograph this morning which was taken in a studio at 79 union street in plymouth the subject i believe to be percival hartley barr of dalton-in-furness, lancashire could some kind person assist as to the regiment or unit many thanks ted humphreys

Hi, do'nt know which Regiment but his belt is 08 pattern. John

[findabetterole]

Nothing wrong with the chaps belt Grumpy... its a standard pattern '08'.

Seph

[Muerrisch]

told you I was no expert!

[edward humphreys]

Nice picture but nothing visible to show what regiment it might be.

many thanks for your reply i am suspicious now taking all comments in to account and i have found that hartley barr married not long before photo was taken i suspect he may have had this photo taken on his honeymoon in a studio 'mock-up' uniform

cheers

ted

[Greg]

Dear Ted,

How interesting- is the implication that: he did not serve but had his photograph taken in uniform or that he did and used the photographers uniform rather than his own?

First World War service dress uniform for other ranks, with certain exceptions, ( it is the British army after all!) only identified the regiment/battalion by cap badge and shoulder titles. Buttons were gneral service(ie Royal Arms) although some did use regimental pattern buttons. Both cap badges adn titles were in very short supply at various times during the war, so there is a possibility he may simply not have had them at the time the photograph was taken. If he was having a photo taken in a uniform he was not entitled to - ie he was not serving surely- his family must have been aware and I owuld have thought it woudl have been a matter of shame at that point in history.

Greg

[apwright]

Hi Ted,

Don't know if you have this info already, but here goes:

Here's his medal card:

Medal card of Barr, Percival H

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Lancaster Regiment WR. 42333 Pioneer

Labour Corps 25249 Pioneer

Royal Engineers 279263 Pioneer

Royal Engineers WR.42333 Pioneer

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...Edoc_Id=1319312

...so the uniform in the picture could be any of the above!

Ancestry has 16 pages of service/pension records for him (though some duplicates and some too faded to read).

He was demobbed on 15/11/1919 and received 12/- per week disability pension (30% disability) for epilepsy aggravated by service.

Interestingly, though, while you say he was married, he is shown throughout the papers as unmarried. Even a pension form dated 1920 shows "Marital Status: S".

His next-of-kin is his father, Hartley Simpson BARR, 165 Chapel St, Dalton.

Hope this helps,

Adrian

P.S. I've downloaded the Ancestry papers if you want them.

[Guest Singing Bear]

Just for the record: Percival Hartley Barr was my maternal grandfather. He served, initially in the Royal Lancashire Regiment, throughout WW1. The photograph was taken in Plymouth during the war, which is where he met his future wife, my grandmother; they married in 1920. P.H. Barr was severely affected my mustard gas and also developed epilepsy which was believed to be a result of shell-shock. He died in 1953 - a premature death brought on a s a result of his traumatic war experience. There should remain no doubts about his qualification to wear the uniform of a British soldier. A great man.

[FROGSMILE]

Just for the record: Percival Hartley Barr was my maternal grandfather. He served, initially in the Royal Lancashire Regiment, throughout WW1. The photograph was taken in Plymouth during the war, which is where he met his future wife, my grandmother; they married in 1920. P.H. Barr was severely affected my mustard gas and also developed epilepsy which was believed to be a result of shell-shock. He died in 1953 - a premature death brought on a s a result of his traumatic war experience. There should remain no doubts about his qualification to wear the uniform of a British soldier. A great man.

It is sad to read that he had such a tough time, even though we know he was one of many to suffer.

His regiment was titled the King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment and the word Lancashire did not appear. The King's Own was the senior Northern English regiment as it had previously been the 4th Regiment of Foot and thus took precedence over all other regiments from Northern England. Their cap badge was the Lion of England.

He appears to have specialised as a Pioneer (a soldier trained in elementary manual labouring and semi skilled construction work). There was usually a sergeant and 10 pioneers on the establishment of each infantry battalion.

In addition some battalions of infantry, usually from Kitchener's war-raised battalions, were formed as divisional pioneers responsible for supporting their divisions with labouring tasks. If he was such a pioneer he would have worn crossed rifle and pick collar badges, which was the device used to identify these troops.

However, the 10 pioneers in normal infantry battalions, pioneers in the Labour Corps, and pioneers in the Royal Engineers, did not wear these badges. As it happens, no battalion of the King's Own was ever allotted as a divisional pioneer battalion, but in Feb 1918 several weak Service battalions of the King's Own were broken up and dispersed, with some men sent to the 6th Entrenching Battalion. Entrenching Battalions comprised men of lower physical grading who were capable of manual labour, but not general infantry duties, other than in extremis.

[Guest Singing Bear]

It is sad to read that he had such a tough time, even though we know he was one of many to suffer.

His regiment was titled the King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment and the word Lancashire did not appear. The King's Own was the senior Northern English regiment as it had previously been the 4th Regiment of Foot and thus too precedence over all other regiments from Northern England. Their cap badge was the Lion of England.

He appears to have specialised as a Pioneer (a soldier trained in elementary manual labouring and semi skilled construction work). There was usually a sergeant and 10 pioneers on the establishment of each infantry battalion.

In addition some battalions of infantry, usually from Kitchener's war-raised battalions, were formed as divisional pioneers responsible for supporting their divisions with labouring tasks. If he was such a pioneer he would have worn crossed rifle and pick collar badges, which was the device used to identify these troops.

However, the 10 pioneers in normal infantry battalions, pioneers in the Labour Corps, and pioneers in the Royal Engineers, did not wear these badges. As it happens, no battalion of the King's Own was ever allotted as a divisional pioneer battalion, but in Feb 1918 several weak Service battalions of the King's Own were broken up and dispersed, with some men sent to the 6th Entrenching Battalion. Entrenching Battalions comprised men of lower physical grading who were capable of manual labour, but not general infantry duties, other than in extremis.

Thanks for the additional information. Yes, I realise I was mistaken with the name of his regiment - in fact, I woke up in the middle of the night thinking, 'Something wrong there'. Anyway, I do know for certain that he served honourably and did his bit for his country.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the additional information. Yes, I realise I was mistaken with the name of his regiment - in fact, I woke up in the middle of the night thinking, 'Something wrong there'. Anyway, I do know for certain that he served honourably and did his bit for his country.

You are far from the only one to make a mistake with the regiment's title. Only last week the narrator of an episode of the "Who Do You Think You Are" TV programme did exactly the same thing. Significantly, the successor regiment has been titled the Duke of Lancaster's Own Royal Regiment.