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Mick D

DLI photgraph

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Mick D

Could anyone enlighten me as to what is shown in this photograph.

What is the badge worn over the Sgt. stripes ?

What do the overseas chevrons & wound stripe on the man on the right of the image mean ?

Mick D

post-15248-1200178476.jpg

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Mick D

looking at the compressed image, it is hard to see the detail, but,

the image over the Sgt stripe looks almost like a bugle or possibly a crescent.

the man on the right has 2 inverted chevrons & 1 short stripe below this running towards the wrist.

Mick

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Tyneside Chinaman

Hi

I believe this photo has been taken from another publication on the left is Private Mattew Hanley 8 DLI Trf Tyneside Scotish trf York and Lanc Kia 1918. MM with DLI in OCT 16? I think

The chap on the right is named Savage? 10th Hussars DCM 1914 at Ypres, see Michael Richardsons Books on Durham City in old Photos

There is a photo of the three soldiers but not the sailor,

Unfortunatley I don't have the book

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Mick D

That's the book that it's from, (one of my in laws !)

Have you seen the badge above Sgt stripes, the only one I know of (in recent times) is a WO badge, but this certainly doesn't look like one.

Mick D

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Tyneside Chinaman

Hi

Its not clear enough on here to make out but could be anyone of a number of trade badges, bugle, lyre wheel etc

The photo I was talking about is taken in the market place bo trees in the background.

22611 Sgt W H Smith won his MM with 13 DLI but that doesn't help. The stripes on the left wrist are good conduct stripes and the single vertica strip means he has been wounded once.

John

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Mick D

I didn't think a Sgt would be a bugler, but presume that if he once was one, then he could wear the badge. It does look like a bugle in the book, but I discounted it as such.

Was a 'good conduct' stripe different to an overseas stripe ?

Mick

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FROGSMILE
looking at the compressed image, it is hard to see the detail, but,

the image over the Sgt stripe looks almost like a bugle or possibly a crescent.

the man on the right has 2 inverted chevrons & 1 short stripe below this running towards the wrist.

Mick

Mick,

I know that the Rifle Regts (KRR and RB) had a special badge for Colour Serjeants in lieu of the plain crown. From memory only, I think it was a respresentation of twin bugles, a laurel wreath and a crown combined in one badge. It is possible that some Light Infantry regiments also wore a similar badge, but as he is described in the article as a Serjeant that seems less likely. I agree with the other poster that it could be one of many qualification/specialist badges but what is perplexing me is the size of the badge in the photo as these qual badges were generally quite small.

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squirrel

Could it be that he was Seargeant Instructor and the badges (on both sleeves) indicate what he would be instructing?

IIRC, in 1917 a Colour Sergeant would be wearing 3 chevrons and the appropriate badge above them.

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Mick D

Unfortunately the photograph I scanned is as good as it gets !

Mick

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Muerrisch

never on service dress or any uniform less than full dress.

The only CSgts after mid 1915 [a few exceptions such as CSgt Instructor Musketry] were appointed CQMS and retained crown over three chevrons point down, upper arm.

CSgts of Rifles covered by same rules.

Instructor badges right sleeve only if rules obeyed.

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Tyneside Chinaman

Hi Mick

Sgt Smith was a machine Gunner by trade and transferred into the Machine Gun Corps as number 172369.

It is possible that the badge is a wreath with LG in the centre.

When he registered for his vote in 1918 he was still with the Durhams and was resident at 35 New Elvet in Durham

regards

John

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FROGSMILE
Could it be that he was Seargeant Instructor and the badges (on both sleeves) indicate what he would be instructing?

IIRC, in 1917 a Colour Sergeant would be wearing 3 chevrons and the appropriate badge above them.

Yes, I agree with Tyneside Chinaman and believe that is a possible scenario. There was also a period when the Colour Serjeant of line infantry wore crossed flags above his chevrons and below the crown but I am unsure when that ceased.

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Muerrisch

on full dress tunic until 1914.

Never on anything else at Home: too expensive!

Battalions in frocks in India, where no tunic was issued, also wore the full badge. The frocks were made a little smarter than the Home versions.

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Tyneside Chinaman

Just to be a know all

the lad on the left is Matthew Hanley 3244 MM with 8/DLI in early 1917 trf Tyneside Scottish and KiA.

I don't know why I wasn't looking at local stuff at the time.

still doesn't help with the badge.

regards

John

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old-ted

Hi Mick D,

I would be intereted in the text below the photo. It seems to be MM presentations but who & why the certificates?

Regards (& to JD)

John

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Mick D

John (Old Ted),

I think that John S (Tyneside Chinaman) knows of the identity of the lads in the photograph, unfortunatley the book isn't mine, but I'll get the text next time I visit the outlaws.

Don't know if I mentioned it in my last pm, but the family group (including JD) will be in your neck of the woods next October !

best wishes

Mick

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Ghost

The text under the photo reads:-

"Durham City heroes, June 1917, Left to right: Pte. Mathew Hanley DLI. awarded the Military Medal for bravery at the Somme after carrying six wounded men to safety under heavy shell fire. Sgt, W.H. Smith DLI. awarded the Military Medal for saving two soldiers who were wounded and under heavy shell fire. L/Cpl. Richard Savage. 10th Royal Hussars awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal in October 1914 for saving two officers under heavy shell and rifle fire who were lying wounded in no mans land.The naval officer in the front row is unknown"

The certificates seem to read " Durham War Heroes"

The badge above the stripes as Mick has posted, seems to be a bugle, but perhaps surmounted by a crown.

Alan

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Tyneside Chinaman

Hi

The scroll was presented in Durham Town hall to all Durham City men who won gallantry awards.

Somewhere I have a photo of the same group in Durham Market Place. The city also gave each man from the city who served a small scroll at the end of the war.

John

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DrElaine

I am fascinated to see the photograph of Matthew Hanley. For an evening course on "reading a war memorial" I am researching 5 names from the St Godric's RC Church war memorial in Durham City. Matthew is one of my allocated soldiers (as indeed is Michael Hanley). His records (albeit rather damaged) survive in the "Burnt Records" available on Ancestry website. It seems that he had a colourful career, including punishment for desertion, as well as his MM.

DrElaine

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10th Hussar DCM
I am fascinated to see the photograph of Matthew Hanley. For an evening course on "reading a war memorial" I am researching 5 names from the St Godric's RC Church war memorial in Durham City. Matthew is one of my allocated soldiers (as indeed is Michael Hanley). His records (albeit rather damaged) survive in the "Burnt Records" available on Ancestry website. It seems that he had a colourful career, including punishment for desertion, as well as his MM.

DrElaine

Hi DrElaine

Would love to see what you find, I have a photo of Mathews widow and son somewhere.

10th Hussar

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DrElaine
Hi DrElaine

Would love to see what you find, I have a photo of Mathews widow and son somewhere.

10th Hussar

I was lucky to find quite a lot about Matthew

Matthew’s records survive (at least in part) in the ‘Burnt Records’ series on www.ancestry.co.uk and contain a wealth of information regarding his transfer between regiments, disciplinary record, and medical record. He was survived by his wife and two children.

The following information has been gleaned from these records.

His attestation papers show that he attested for the 1/8th Battalion (T.F.) of the Durham Light Infantry on 31st October 1914. He appears to have attested for 4 years service in the United Kingdom and to have indicated that he had not seen prior service in the armed forces, including the Territorial Force. His address at the time of attestation was 4 South Street, Durham.

Another document in the file indicates his willingness as a man of the Territorial Force to “subject himself to liability to serve in any place outside the United Kingdom in the event of National Emergency” and is also dates 31/10/14.

A Medical Inspection report of the same date shows Matthew to be 23 years and 6 months at the time of attestation. He was 5 feet 7½ inches in height, with a chest measurement of 39 inches when full expanded, and a 2½ inch range of expansion. His vision and general development were both described as “good” and he was confirmed as being fit for service.

Matthew’s Military History Sheet show him to have been on home service from 31/10/14 to 19/4/1915, abroad with the Expeditionary Force in France from 20/4/1915 to 2/1/17, home from 3/1/17 to 25/3/18 and with the Expeditionary Force in France from 26/3/1918 to his death on 2/9/18. This record also mentions that he suffered gas poisoning and was awarded the Military Medal.

A difficult to read form on his service indicates that Matthew attested on 31/10/14 and joined his service battalion on 13/1/1915 (this would fit with him receiving the 1915 Star). It also appears to indicate that he deserted from 19/7/17 to 14/11/17 (this may correspond with the birth of his second child).

Late 1917 was a troubling time for Matthew; he was recorded as being treated for syphilis at Lichfield on 22/11/17.

The desertion is confirmed by another form which states that he was tried by a DCM on 4/3/18 for “when on active service deserting from 19/7/1917 to 14/11/1917. Sentenced to 56 days detention.” It seems that Matthew was not required to serve the full period of detention since the record goes on to say that he was posted to 5th DLI on 26/3/18 and then transferred to the Northumberland Fusiliers, and posted to the 22nd Battalion on 30/3/1918/ On 5/8/1918 he was compulsorily transferred to the Yorks and Lancs regiment and posted to the 2/4th Battalion on the same day.

A Detention Record indicates that Matthew was released from Detention Barracks (location illegible) on 20/3/1918; while in detention, his conduct had been “very good”.

A Casualty Form from 1918 indicates that Matthew was 24 when he enlisted, and give his religion as R.C. and his occupation as miner. It shows him embarking at Folkestone on 25/3/18 and arriving at Boulogne the same day. He arrived at ”E” Depot and was posted to 5 D.L..I. Etaples on 26/3/18. On 28/3/18 he was transferred to the Northumberland Fusiliers, posted to the 22nd Battalion and allotted a new regimental number 236942.

A further record shows that he was then transferred to the Yorks and Lancs regiment on 6/8/18 and allotted yet another number, 235934. He joined his unit some days later (date is illegible) and was killed in the field on 2nd September. According to the Commonwealth Graves Commission database, he is buried in Queant Road Cemetery, Buissy.

A fragmentary record, over-stamped with the date of 16th September 1918 shows Matthew’s wife as Eliz. R. of South Street, date of marriage as 25.8.13 and children as Matthew, date of birth 28.2.194 and Frances, date of birth 1917 (day and month illegible). A search of the FreeBMD database confirms these details; his wife's name was Elizabeth Rowan.

Another difficult to read and damaged record (letter from Officer in Charge of Records, York) of 30th September 1918 seems to request evidence that Matthew’s military medal (as per London Gazette of 22/1/1917) has been disposed of and of the date of disposal. Quite why it should need to be disposed of is unclear, and this seems a heartless request less than a month after his death.

Documentation completed to allow issue of his (service) medals and plaque show that Matthew was survived by his wife Elizabeth, children Matthew and ? (record is faded) and siblings Mick (Fusiliers?), Catherine and Margaret

On 4th March 1919, Private Hanley’s private effects (cards, photo and paper covers) were forwarded to his wife Elizabeth Hanley of 4 South Street, Durham by the Office in Charge of Records, York.

At about the same time (record is very faded), Mrs Hanley was awarded a pension of 23/- (it appears), for herself and two children.

Two slips acknowledging receipt (of medals?) were signed by E Gibbons in 1921 (was this Matthew’s wife, Elizabeth, now remarried).

Matthew appeared in the 1918 Absent Voter’s list (1676/DUR) as Hanley Matthew, 4 South Street, Durham, #236942 22nd Northumberland Fusiliers

He also appears on the Durham Town Hall Plaque (Pte Hanley Matt).

He is listed in the London Gazette (www.gazettes-online.co.uk ) of 22nd january 1917 as a recipient of the Military Medal.

There are several entries in the Durham Advertiser pertaining to Matthew Hanley:

On 1st October 1915, there is a list of D.L.I. casualties “amongst warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the E.F. are reported from the base under date September 7th … Suffering from gas poisoning … DLI 8th BN (TF) Hanley (3244) M...”

On 26th January 1917 “His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to bestow the Military Medal to the undermentioned non-commissioned officers and men”: there follows 22 names including Private M Hanley DLI.

On 15th June 1917, in a longish piece entitled “Durham Heroes Honoured” and subtitled Pte Hedley and Pte Hanley, Presentation of Illuminated Scrolls, it is stated “The initial presentations in connection with the Durham Heroes’ recognition Fund, a fund promoted to publicly acknowledge the bravery of local men who have been awarded honours for distinguished conduct in the field of battle took place at the Palace Theatre, Durham, on Tuesday night, during the interval in the entertainment on behalf of Durham wounded men and prisoners of war. The men thus honoured were Pte. Robert Hedley and Pte. Hanley, both Durham men, who have each been awarded the Military Medal. … Continuing, the Mayor said they also had with them that evening Pte Hanley D.L.I. a Durham man born in Milburngate, where he he had lived all his life. Like Pte. Hedley, he joined up at the outbreak of war, and for his gallant conduct in the field had been awarded the Military Medal. Pte Hanley was severely wounded and lost a leg during the fighting on the Somme front and brought in under fire Lieutenant Barrett and eight wounded men. The addresses were handed over by his Worship amid rounds of cheers, and the recipients responded in brief speeches characteristic of Tommy Atkins”. (Note that this is the only mention of Matthew losing a leg. There is no mention of such a wound in his service record, and it seems unlikely that he would have been expected to return to the front after losing a limb.)

On 10th August 1917, in another report on a presentation ceremony (this time in the Town Hall), it is stated “… an illuminated address was also handed to Private M Hanley DLI, MM,, who carried to safety a wounded officer and five other men and then went back into the firing line until the close of day”.

Finally, on 13th September 1916, the following report appeared under the heading Military Medalist Killed. “Mrs Hanley, 4 South Street, Durham has been notified that her husband Private M Hanley of the Y&L Regiment was killed in action on September 2nd 1918. Prior to joining at the outbreak of war, Private Hanley was employed at Browney Colliery. He was a Military Medalist. He leaves a wife and two children. Writing Mrs Hanley, deceased’s commanding officer says “Private Hanley was a good soldier and acquitted himself nobly on thr battlefield. He was respected by his officers and the men of his company, and their sympathy extends to you in this sad bereavemen.”.”

A plaque at Browney Colliery Social Club includes amongst those commemorated a Hanley M (rank and regiment not specified)

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HHanley
On 02/12/2008 at 11:55, 10th Hussar DCM said:

Hi DrElaine

Would love to see what you find, I have a photo of Mathews widow and son somewhere.

10th Hussar

Hello, 

 

I'm hoping you may see this as this post was done quite a long time ago now, but I am the wife of Matthew's great-grandson.  I would be very interested to see the picture that you have of Matthew's widow and son if you are able to publish at all?

 

 

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10th Hussar DCM

image.jpg

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HHanley
16 hours ago, 10th Hussar DCM said:

image.jpg

Ah wow, thank you so much, my father-in-law will be really touched, its his birthday on Friday and I have been trying to make a family tree for him to see more pictures of his father (the small lad in the picture was also called Matthew Hanley and he sadly died in WW2) I can even see the family resemblance in Elizabeth here.  You've made our day!!

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Goldengirl1944

Matthew Hanley was my grandfathers brother and therefor my fathers uncle. 

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