1/5 Btn Manchesters

[nicko576]

Could anyone help,

I have a soldier who died on the 21/09/1915, as i cannot find any major battles involving the Manchesters around this time, would i be right in suggesting he died as a result of shellfire, sniper fire or illness. any help would be greatly appreciated.

Nick

[michaeldr]

Nick,

They were in the firing line 14th to 24th (per Westlake's 'British Regiments at Gallipoli')

His death could have been caused by any of the reasons which you suggest

There was even a Turkish Mine exploded on the 21st Sept - one of six in September per Steve Chambers' book 'Gully Ravine' -

so there was plenty going on even without a major battle

regards

Michael

[John_Hartley]

would i be right in suggesting he died as a result of shellfire, sniper fire or illness.

No.

Michael puts his finger on it. The Battalion's war diary records "1 missing (entombed thro' mine explosion)"

I assume he's 2591, Pte John William Dean (born Pemberton; enlisted Wigan) - the only man from the Bn. recorded as dying that day?

John

[nicko576]

Thanks Michael and John.

That is the man, i am looking for.

until i read your replies, i was not aware of the use of mines in Gallipoli.

once again thanks so much.

Nick

[John_Hartley]

Nick

Yes - mining was very common on both sides during the closing months of the campaign

John

[nicko576]

Thanks John

my next question was going to be , did the british use mining

Nick

[michaeldr]

There was even an element of 'Tit-for-tat' in the mining by the two sides

The Turks exploded their six September mines on the 3rd, 15th, 18th, 21st, 22nd and 29th

while the British replied, detonating their mines on the 14th, 19th and 22nd

As well as Steve Chambers' book already mentioned

the subject of mining on Gallipoli at this time is well covered in the first hand account by

Joseph Murray recently republished as 'Gallipoli 1915' by Cerberus in their Fortunes of War series

regards

Michael

[nicko576]

Michael

I will try my library for that book.

I take it the mines were not as destructive as the ones on the western front.

Nick

[michaeldr]

Sorry Nick,

but I have to pass on that one

You need John or someone with similar WF knowledge to comment on that

best regards

Michael

[John_Hartley]

Nick

I'm certainly no expert but my sense is that the Gallipoli mining was much smaller scale.

The mines exploded at, say, Messines in 1917 had taken many months to dig by large scale tunnelling operations. Mining is only really mentioned around the autumn at Gallipoli - there simply can't have been the time or resources (or helpful geology) to do more.

I think, also, that when one reads of the Messines attack you hear of many German casualties from a single blast. At Gallipoli, we lose the odd ones and twos in a battalion.

It would be very interesting to see if 1/5th Mancs had any particular involvement comprised as they were substantially of Wigan miners.

John

[nicko576]

Thanks John

I was wondering that myself, was there a tunneling company, or did the 1/5, dig their own. Pte Dean

the man in question was indeed a miner.

Nick

[MartinWills]

Mining at Gallipoli was on a far small scale than the major explosions on the Western Front. That said it was, in places, a very intense business causing much disruption.

On the Anzac front you get a fair idea of the activities from " The Gallipoli Diary of Sergeant Lawrence of the Australian Engineers, 1st A.I.F" - the diary of an Aussie sapper. The extent of tunnelling in a specific location is also covered in Peter Stanley's book "Quinn's Post"

Tunnelling is most likely to have been performed by ordinary nfantry units or sapper (engineers) units. There were no tunnelling companies at Gallipoli. It would obviously make sense to use units comprising former miners .....

[John_Hartley]

It would obviously make sense to use units comprising former miners .....

It would.

But I've just flicked through the diary and there's absolutely no indication that 5th Mancs did any tunnelling. The diary describes what I would call "normal trench routine" and the only day when assistance is specifically given to the Royal Engineers it is to help with building winter quarters.

Odd. Most odd. I thought they would have been a cert. to be involved but they weren't.

John

[nicko576]

Thanks everyone

An interesting tale

cheers

Nick

[Eceabat]

Hi all,

just thought I'd put in my two bobs worth. When the Allies evacuated the Anzac position, they filled a number of tunnels with explosives, to be detonated only if the Turks discovered the final stage of the evacuation in progress and launched an attack. Two mines, located at the Nek, was set off, according to Bean by a somewhat over zealous young officer, killing some 80 Turkish soldiers. There is a good account of this, from the Turkish side, in a new book brought out by Haluk Oral, including reference to two soldiers buried by the first explosion being blown into the air by the second blast.

The mines were definitely on a smaller scale than on the Western Front. The five or so mines prepared in the Johnstone's Jolly sector only amounted to about six tonnes of gun cotton, considered very large by Gallipoli standards. Turkish national park authorities were recently prompted to drop plans to dig up a large part of the area in order to "re-create" the old Turkish front line due to the danger of buried explosives, something they knew nothing about till a few hints were dropped.

An interesting side light to history came in the 1950s, when two locals from the nearby village of Kocadere, went rummaging in a tunnel nearer the Quinns Post sector of the old front line. They apparently were carrying an old gas lantern and went on to prove (very fatally) how dangerous an old battlefield can be for the unwary or the blindingly stupid.

Cheers

Bill

[Krithia]

Tunnelling is most likely to have been performed by ordinary nfantry units or sapper (engineers) units. There were no tunnelling companies at Gallipoli.

Actually there were two mining companies at Gallipoli on the Helles front, VIIIth Corps Mining Company that was made up of former miners (the Joe Murray account in his book Gallipoli, As I Saw It is brilliant). In December 1915, 254th Mining Company RE, merged with this company, but arrived a little too late to make much of an impact. 254 then moved to the Western Front.

Hi Bill, is Haluk Oral's book (Gallipoli Through Turkish Eyes?) available now? It sounds like a must have book.