Regimental numbering: an overview

[chrrip]

Grumpy

5th Londons/LRB 1st enlistment 4.8.14 9785 last 9801

5.8.14 9802 to 9846

6.8.14 9847 to 9929

7.8.14 9930 around the clock to 143 recruitment closed 1st Btnn 'full up'

2nd Bttn raised 30.8.14/ early September 144 to 1108

then a 100 or so more to beginning Dec 14 when 3rd Bttn raised; numbering around 1210

sequence ran to high 5000s before 6 digit number introduced although special sequences introduced for non LRB m posted 1/5th london after Gommecourt

eg 10000 starting with 2/7 Essex; and 10500 for ex 2/7 Middlesx men

NB numbers did not change in 1908 as LRB organisationally unaffected by new TF

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Chris:

Many thanks: so numbering continued from original series in 1908?

[laughton]

If not already resolved, don't forget about the Canadians who came over and served in the British units and kept their CEF numbers. That is the case with both of my grandfathers, one in the 26th Northumberland Fusiliers (#82130 32nd Btn. CEF) and one in the Royal Irish Rifles (#51288 from the P.P.C.L.I.). That must have really messed up the numbering system.

[Muerrisch]

Yaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats all I need!

NOT already resolved!

Thank you.

[owen4256]

Grumpy

Last pre-war regular Essex enlistment was c 10500 (10500 was on 4.8.14) . I have 500+ regular enlistment dates from 1881-1914 and a few dozen pre-war Territorials. I also have a few 3rd Militia Battalion dates pre-war. During the war both service and regular battalions used a single sequence up to 61xxx in 1920. The various Territorial battalions each got up to around 7xxx before the 1917 renumbering. The first, second and third line territorials seem to have used a single sequence even after the original battalion was split. Happy to help.

Owen

[chrrip]

Chris:

Many thanks: so numbering continued from original series in 1908?

yes started in 1859 and continued until 1919 without interruption; can give more details re 1916/17 renumbering and post war; c

[Muerrisch]

Thats fine, thank you all.

Hoovering up every scrap!

[chrrip]

LRB again

Numbers rolled on until late 1916 when 5999 was reached; could not continue because a few older serving members with numbers in the 6000s; also the Regt had a problem with the blokes who had been transferred to the LRB after 1.7.16 when the LRB had 569 casualties. The men numbered up to 5999 were LRB enlistments but the new ranges introduced were

10000 - 10073 for 2/7 Essex men transferred to 1 LRB on 31.8.16

10501 - 10620 for 7, 6, 8 London men

10622 - 11081 for ex 2/7 Middx men who joined LRB on 3.7.16

so 3rd Battalion men enlisting at end of 16/early 17 numbered before men who transferred/joined LRB six months earlier and

12000 introduced for LRB enlistments following on from them; ran up to about 12088 before 6 digit numbers came in.

Note the small gaps in sequences which only means that I have yet to find them for my nominal roll of LRB men.

6 digit numbers allocated 300000 - 319999; men slotted in starting with seniority - so 300001 was RQMS - followed by length of service; series ran to 303919 for LRB enlistments ( 5998 was renumbered 303918 ) before Essex men etc slotted in. LRB enlistments restarted at around 304430.

Ultimately the series ran to around 307702 which is my highest recorded number although many more 3rd Bttn men would have been numbered higher; not found them because they did not serve F/F. But; same problem in 17 as 16 and ranges introduced for men transferred eg

315000 for ex London men transferred on 7.4.17 etc running to 315558

318000 for ASC, odds and sods and mainly disbanded 12 London men who joined on 30.1.18; ran to 318327; series continued to about 319022 when men transferred to LRB in April 1918.

Just to complicate things further a large draft joined LRB from a RB trainingg estab in late March 1918 after Gavrelle and about half were assimilated into 307000 range; why?; who knows.

Hope this makes some sense

cheers Chris

[Muerrisch]

Sense? Are numbers supposed to make sense?!

Yes, thank you, all taken on board: I have a grand set of information except for the Scottish regiments .... Highland Scots that is.

[chrrip]

LRB once more

Block ( within London Regt allocation ) given to LRB post WWI started with 6561001 - Bobby Lydall who resigned his LRB commission to reenlist; series ran to 1937 - think highest number reached was in 6562200s from evidence in Yearbooks.

In 1937 London Regt was abolished and LRB transferred to RB , became London Rifle Brigade, Rifle Brigade ( Prince Consort's Own ); adopted RB numbers starting 6967001 ending 6969999; with the creation of 2 LRB in 1939 the numbers issued ran well into 6969000s; 6968s used up 1938/early 39.

Once war declared direct recruiting ceased and drafts to 1 LRB from Jan 40 were from 'Army Class' recruits ie conscripts/ volunteers? In 1941 1 LRB was redesignated 7 RB and 2 LRB became 8 RB; shortlived 3 LRB was redesignated Tower hamlets and left corps to become recon regt. In early 1941 reinforcements to 7 RB sent from 2nd Motor Training Bttn; 'Y' List. I assume that LRB numbers were no longer issued at this stage; since 2 MTB supplied men to all RB motor Bttns.

7 & 8 RB disbanded post war and LRB reconstituted in 1947; do not know if ex LRB number range was resumed or new range adopted; will have to try and find out

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Thank you: I am glad I am not the LRB historian!

Need a quiet Sunday afternoon with no rugger to watch to get my head round the subject.

[Muerrisch]

The work is going very well: I am now casting around for suitable illustrations.

Ideally, these would be of artefacts with the soldier's number stamped/ engraved etc.

We are focussing on infantry, but we are not stuck on 1914-1918, but need all periods from 1800 to present.

Suggestions:

button sticks, bed/ duty plates, medals [preferably on the reverse not the edge], service papers, ID tags, trench art, you name it.

Please, offers, top quality shots, to me by PM.

Many thanks.

[laughton]

I have a grouping of many numbers in the original documents from my grandfather's record of his platoon. These are not official documents but it does reveal the variation in the numbers in the 26th Northumberland Fusiliers:

http://www.censol.ca/research/greatwar/platoon/platoon.htm

Unfortunately he is not on the list as the Lt., so his Canadian number 82130 does not show.

Updated August 24, 2015 as that site is closed:

http://laughton.ca/mirror/military/ww1/gvlaughton/platoon/platoon.htm

Sorry about that but web sites change over time!

[Muerrisch]

Thank you for that: nice artefacts too.

[Muerrisch]

another thought: a nice picture of a personally engraved Queen Mary Christmas tin?

[Muerrisch]

Progreass and a plea.

The six major series spanning 1800 to present are now mostly understood and written up.

The VF to TF number system of 1908 is a mess but we have details of a fair number of transitions.

BUT we have little on the Militia to SR changes.

I quote my draft:

The Demise of the Militia and birth of the Special Reserve.

As one of the many reforms originating in the poor performance of many aspects of the army in the South African War 1899 – 1902, the provision of reserves to the regular army was reviewed and substantially changed. After the regular reserve was used up there had been no alternative except to appeal for volunteers from the Volunteer Force and the Militia, neither of whose terms of engagement required them to serve outside the United Kingdom. A planning assumption before the Great War was that 80% reinforcements would be needed for the infantry in the first year of a European war, and these numbers were not available.

Special AO of 23rd December promulgated the scheme for organising a Special Reserve [sR] and [although not explicitly stated] spelled the end of the Militia by default. From 15th January 1908, there was to be no recruiting into the Militia, but only the SR. Existing Militiamen were to be offered enlistment in the SR, but on an individual basis: it is a misconception that Militia units went to bed as such and rose next dat as SR men. Indeed, 23 Militia battalions were disbanded. The SR was to be more highly trained [six months continuous training initially], paid as regulars whilst serving, liable for service overseas as drafts [not as a formed unit] and engaged for four years at a time. There was a large annual turn-over of men once the SR had been running a few years: Militia men had been allowed to serve out their time in the SR if they had over a year to serve, but the consequence of four-year terms was that, in any year, about a quarter might well leave. The establishment of an SR battalion was approximately 500 men in peacetime, so that over 100 men might leave in one year.

There is, regrettably, a substantial problem with SR regimental numbering in the years leading up to the Great War. The Special Army Order gives no guidance on numbering for the new units, and none has been traced. Regulations for the Special Reserve Para. 654 c. 1912 stated:

‘A separate series of regimental numbers will be kept for each unit, and one of these numbers will be given in sequence by the OC unit to each special reservist’

Lacking central guidance, at least three separate courses of events could be pursued. The simplest and best would be to start numbering on 16th January 1908 at number 1. Some units did. Those with a more relaxed attitude about ‘transfer’ from the Militia seem to have allowed ex-Militiamen to bring their old numbers with them, thus creating a population where the senior men [in terms of total auxiliary service] had old high numbers, and the junior had low numbers, a reversal of the natural order of things. The third possibility is that numbering began as the next available number on the old Militia series. Either way, many SR units had difficult-to-believe numbers being issued in early 1914 …… 4xxx was not unusual. Even allowing for a phenomenal annual wastage rate, to arrive at 4000 in seven years seems difficult to explain except by the third possibility.

So, there we have it: which units did what in 1908, and where had their numbers got to on outbreak of war, please?

[joseph]

East Yorkshire Regiment

The Militia/Special Reserve continued their numbers through until at least December 1914

1567 Attested 15/07/1890

2861 Attested 10/01/1899

3368 Attested 28/02/1900

4007 Attested 27/04/1903

5111 Attested 03/06/1908

5988 Attested 09/08/1912

6343 Attested 04/08/1914

7777 Attested 09/12/1914

The highest Special Reserve number I have is 8947 but no Attestation Date

Regards Charles

[Muerrisch]

Charles thank you: most useful ...... they were a bit naughty but you can see why the old Militiamen were happy to cling on to their lower numbers.

Any more out there please?

[Richard Jones]

Hi Grumpy,

I do not have any Militia numbers at all, sorry. So I do not know if the numbers used by the Worcesters S.R. were a continuation of Militia Numbers. I do however suspect they just started a new seqeuence and in August 1908 the Special Reserve were issuing from 7000 up. By January 1909 the two Special Reserve Battalions were up to 8300. I suspect they were up to their intended strength, as by January 1912 they were still only up to 8800. On the 4th August 1914 they issued (To the S.R.) 9139. They carried on issuing S.R. terms till 24th November 1914, when they issued 9810. There could be a few more that I have not found yet but can only be a few at most.

Regards Mike Jones

[Muerrisch]

Mike, thank you: all information gratefully gathered in!

[AndrewFrench]

Hi Chaps

I have been compiling a database of Berkshire Yeomanry numbers from WO372 and other sources. Interesting patterns and info can be cleaned from this. I would be happy to assist in any way

regards Andrew French

[Muerrisch]

Andrew, thank you.

Graham and I have reluctantly concluded that the first bite has to be infantry. As the article is now 26 pages A4 10 point, plus illustratons, we have to prioritise.

I have filed your offer on the file called 'back bolier', thank you.

[Muerrisch]

Next problem area!

The Territorial Force.

1908 .... did a unit start again at number 1., or did it carry on with the VF series?

So far, I have noted that LRB did NOT start a new series, nor did 5th South Staffords.

May I have more examples, please, both 'fresh starts' and 'carrying on' ?

[mikebriggs]

The 6th Sherwood Foresters certainly started from 1. It is a well recorded fact that Sergt Broomhead was the first man to enlist after midnight on the 1st April 1908 and was re-alloted to number 1. As far as I know the other Battalions of the 139th Brigade also started from 1 (5th, 7th and 8th).

Mike

[Muerrisch]

Thank you very much.

By the way, I apologise in advance if I have some of this info. already ...... the geriatric brain can not only forget where things are, but forget to look!