Regimental numbering: an overview

[Muerrisch]

Graham Stewart and I are collaborating on a major project, working title

" Regimental Numbering systems of the British Army c. 1800 to c.1940, with some case studies".

We have both been published on a narrower remit previously, and have decided that between us we ought to tackle the big canvas.

In essence, our treatment is bound be chronologically-based, with quoting of the rules and regulations, and the identification of the many exceptions. Between us we have a vast library of the references, and I have unlimited access to Cambridge University Library and easy access to AOs and ACIs.

So where do the Pals come in?

Graham and I have a wealth of information on 'our' regiments, ie the Northumberland Fusiliers, and the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Many Pals have compiled, or are compiling, data bases and thereby become willy-nilly numbering experts. To give examples of danger areas, consider:

1. the transition of VF to TF in 1908, with some starting a new series, others continuing the old series, and some allowing old soldiers to bring numbers forward.

2. Likewise the transition from Militia to Special Reserve.

3. The use of letter prefixes by some Home Counties regiments, Middx. included.

4. The adoption [or not!] of 3/ prefix by SR battalions.

5. Allocation of number blocks to the Kitchener S battalions.

not to mention complications dating back to the SA war and beyond.

This is not an appeal for help YET, but I would like to hear from you if you think you have knowledge that could be incorporated at some future date.

Just to whet whistles, how about this for a thought? For your corps or regiment, regular army only, what was the highest number allocated to a soldier up to the declaration of war? The number system started at 1 in 1881/2, and some regiments, particularly the 4 battalion ones, are thought to have 'started again' in the interim.

Please PM me with any offers of help: I will keep this thread clear for major progress announcements or appeals.

Finally, those members known to have specialised knowledge will have their attention drawn to this: please forgive if you were not on the list!

[Chief_Chum]

The Suffolks had reached the late 9000 numbers by August 1914...

[Charles Fair]

A very worthy and valuable project, well done for taking it on. It will doubtless go through many editions as more evidence is derived from the many regimental databases in progress.

London TF battalions had got to about 2000 on the outrbreak of war.

[themonsstar]

The 1st & 2nd Bn Manchester Regt Aug 1914 both up to 9985. By March 1915/16490, July 1915/24260, all of there numbers are from the 14 Star & 14/15 Star.

By Dec 1920 the 2nd Bn were into 88953 (GSM Iraq)

The TF Bn were still in were upto 3000 numbers for the 15 star.

[Black Watch]

My Great Uncle enlisted in R.I.F. in 1908 his number was 10071.

Neil

[steve fuller]

the Bedfords reached 104.. by 4-8-1914. Any help you need with them, let me know and I may be able to help?

[stiletto_33853]

Grumpy,

Will be more than willing to assist, where I can with the Rifle Brigade.

Andy

[Muerrisch]

Help is promised for the following [in no particular order!]

GG

RAMC

RFA

RB

Bedfords

Manchesters

Notts and Derby

Suffolks

Lincs

KOSB

Middlesex

QORWK

London TF

Hampshires

LRB

Dorsets

S Staffs

HLI

and of course GS and I have RWF and NF covered.

Please Guards Brigade?

Cavalry

RE

ASC

RHA

RGA

MGC

and many more.

[Chris_Baker]

A great idea, Grumpy. Anything I can do to publicise it, etc - just ask.

[Stebie9173]

I sent an e-mail re Northamptons because your PM box was full. Please add to the list. I'll delete this post later.

May be able to add some info on R.E. and M.G.C. also.

Thanks,

Steve.

[Marc Thompson]

Grumpy,

More than willing to help where and if I can with the Hampshire Regiment.

Marc

[chrrip]

I can help on London Rifle Brigade - 1859 to WWII; in various forms; Ist City of London Volunteers; 5th London Regiment; 7 & 8th Bttns Rifle Brigade WWII. up to 1951 when LRB merged with Rangers. The Regiment's number sequence did not change in 1908. I know the number of the 1st man to enlist on outbreak of WWI because the subscription rolls have survived for 1859 to 1914; 1921 to 1939. The numbers changed in 1917 ( including special ranges for men transferred to LRB ) ; 1921; 1937 ( when RB range adopted but LRB given distinct slab to use ) and over time have done a fair bit of work on them.

Sounds a very interesting project

Chris

[Bernard_Lewis]

Good luck but I don't consider myself 'expert' on Swansea Battalion numbering let alone the whole of the Welsh Regiment battalions! Maybe in time, at least for the 14th.

Bernard

[Marc Thompson]

Just for starters, where had regular numbers got to on 4 Aug 1914 please?

The Hampshires were up to about 9630.

[Promenade]

Hello,

Glos Regt Regulars about 10020

KLR Regulars about 10600

Not an exact science!

Promenade

[Promenade]

Grumpy

Perhaps too simplistic a statement (at least for the KLR and the Glos Regt)!

You can see two enlistment threads running through the following KLR data (note the 5 year gap and the duplicate numbers. I interpret these as separate blocks for the Special Reserve and the Regulars – however the distinction becomes blurred during the war. I originally thought the 5-year gap may have had something to do with the termination of 5 years ‘Regular’ Reserve service and men had to re-enlist but kept their original numbers – but am now not too sure.

Turning to the Glos Regt – there appears to be a block out of sequence with the rest – was this block detached and given to 2 Glos Regt and thus in a temporal sense ran out of sequence with the main block?

Even allowing for transcription errors the whole subject is a veritable minefield – one which I have kept well clear of. It seems that making your way safely through the minefield of one Regiment does not necessarily mean you can use the same route with another.

Best of luck mate. . .

[Read - number, enlistment date, Bn]

KLR

10573 24/07/1914 4

10574 17/10/1904 1

10577 07/06/1909 2

10581 07/08/1914 1

10589 07/08/1914 3

10590 07/08/1914 4

10593 08/08/1914 11

10596 15/08/1914 1

10600 06/08/1914 1

10600 02/07/1909 4

10606 07/07/1909 1

10608 05/08/1914 1

10608 13/07/1909 1

10617 21/07/1909 1

10628 06/08/1914 1

10629 06/08/1914 4

10634 08/08/1914 1

10636 15/07/1909 1

10644 09/08/1914 3

10645 21/07/1909 1

10648 09/08/1914 4

10651 09/08/1914 1

10658 10/08/1914 4

10658 28/07/1909 1

10659 10/08/1914 1

10665 10/08/1914 11

10668 10/08/1914 1

10669 10/08/1914 1

10683 08/08/1914 4

10687 08/09/1914 15

10689 08/08/1914 4

10695 11/08/1909 1

10706 06/08/1909 1

10707 06/08/1914 1

10717 08/08/1914 4

10720 09/08/1914 4

Glos Regt

10000 17/06/1914 2

10016 01/08/1914 1

10028 17/08/1914 1

10030 17/08/1914 1

10043 17/08/1914 1

10044 09/08/1914 2

10070 05/10/1914 2

10075 25/10/1914 2

10079 09/11/1914 1

10082 16/11/1914 2

10100 08/12/1914 2

10111 15/12/1914 2

10114 17/12/1914 2

10142 08/08/1914 1

10144 11/08/1914 1

10148 10/08/1914 1

10151 08/08/1914 1

10315 12/08/1914 2

10381 20/08/1914 1

10418 22/08/1914 2

10575 24/08/1914 2

10666 24/08/1914 2

10722 27/08/1914 2

10806 28/08/1914 1

10836 26/08/1914 2

11096 29/08/1914 2

11137 01/09/1914 2

[Muerrisch]

Right: lets look at KLR only. I expect 1 and 2bn to share a series, and cannot see any 2bn men.

3[sR] should have a separate series.

4[TF] should have yet another separate series.

10574 could be a transcription error 04 for 14, and apart from that the practice of allocating batches of numbers 'next to be issued' to different recruiting officers seems fairly common and was much more so 50 years earlier. So 1bn looks fairly kosher.

I agree your 3 and 4 bn numbers are a problem: either they should not have reached anything like 10xxx by 1914 if they started at number 1. in 1908, or they probably should not have reached 10xxx if they continued the old Militia and VF series.

Houston, you have a problem!

[Graham Stewart]

Those five figures for the 3rd & 4th KLR would be for the 3rd(Reserve) & 4th(Extra Reserve)Bns. I have similar duplications for the 3rd(Res)NF, but because they use a '3/' prefix I safely removed them from all other five figure number series and bingo problem over.

Banging all numbers into one database without seperation of certain battalions, who use their own numbering system causes masses of problems. The problem with the SR & ER Battalions is that on the formation of the SR in 1908, they didn't go back to number 1, they continued the numbering sequence in line with their regulars. As a result on the outbreak of war their numbers begin racing ahead, along with those of the regulars, as men not only enlisted at the Depot, but they were also being enlisted into the Reserve Battalions and given their numbers in sequence. Same problem occurred with the NF, but in their case(and possibly) with others the 3rd(Res)Bn reached five figure numbers far quickly that the regulars, this is because the regulars were still using low four figure numbers in Aug 1914, where as 3rd(Res)NF were already in the much higher four figure stage.

The only problem I forsee, is did the 3rd & 4th KLR receive 'pooled' numbers from one source before the war, or did they continue to number seperately?

Graham.

[joseph]

Grumpy,

Any help

East Yorkshire Regiment

Line Battalions 1st and 2nd

10000 - 25/01/1913

10285 - 22/07/1914

10316 - 11/08/1914

3rd Special Reserve

3rd/6343 - 04/08/1914

3rd/6346 - 04/08/1914

4th Territorial

4th/1927 - 05/08/1914

5th Territorial

5th/1002 - 04/08/1914

5th/1022 - 04/08/1914

10th Service

10th/0003 - 01/09/1914

11th Service

11th/ 00016 - 07/09/1914

12th Service

12th/0001 - 14/09/1914

13th Service

13th/0003 - 16/11/1914

14th Service

14th/0005 – 08/09/1915

Regards Charles

[Muerrisch]

Oh Oh! There was me assuming 3rd were SR and 4th TF.

I don't believe in coincidences and find the similarity of all the numbers [say 10xxx] alarming. Are we saying that the predecessor of 3rd and 4th bns from 2 R Lancs Militia] had got to a number in 1908 which, with normal SR and ER recruiting, had by chance got to 10xxx in both cases? To go along with the 'continuous series' hypothesis, 2RLancsMil would have needed to have got to such a number in 1908 that 6 years-worth of high turnover in BOTH SR and ER could reach 10xxx in both units. High turnover in a 500 man unit is, I suppose, 100 per unit per year. That means turnover [total for both] 6x100x2 or 1200 men. So were 2RLancsMil at about 9500 in 1908, or have I missed the point ..... again!

Nevertheless, why no 2nd bn?

Willfully stripping a prefix off for database purposes should be made a criminal offence!

Mind you, Graham and I are collaborating, not arguing, be it understood.

And thanks to Charles for some 'normal'! numbers.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi Grumpy and you too Graham

Any Durham LI questions regarding numbers are not a problem.

Highest number to enter France in 1914 was 12944 Pte J W Scott who entered France on 19/10/14

Highest Special reservist 3/10971 entered France 8/9/14 Highest 4th Bn 4/9211 Thos Wilson.

regards

John

[Paul Reed]

Out of interest, what do you intend to do with this? Publish?

Happy to add some details of Royal Sussex Regiment which I have.

I have no L/10335 enlisted 6.5.14, next man I have a record of is L/10410 enlisted 10.8.14

Having said that I also have a L/10506 who is shown as enlisted 7.8.14.

Going backwards about 10 years, L/7966 enlisted 10.7.04.

Hope that helps.

[Muerrisch]

Yes Paul, certainly publish, but no publisher inked in. Our time span is pre-1829 to post 1920, not just the Great War. We favour either Military Historical Society Bulletin or the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research, but we believe the subject is shrouded in such mystery that the widest possible circulation is desirable. There is certainly no profit motive. It may be that Chris might like a version trimmed to 1914 1918 for permanent availability.

Graham is busy with a career move at the moment so I am front man .... he will get more heavily involved after I have dealt with up to 1881!

And thank you for R Sx info: my home county.

[Paul Reed]

Ok - sounds good. There are some back articles on numbers, some of which I did, in the OMRS Journal. My journals are deep-archived at present, but perhaps you or Graham may have them?

Meanwhile I will scan and email you the details of Royal Sussex numbers I have from pre-Boer war to WW1 for the 'L' prefix, i.e. regulars.

[Muerrisch]

Paul: I think we will be asking you nicely in due course to move the articles to shallow archive! We envisage the project could take a year as we want to be as definitive and authoritative as possible, given the complexity of the subject.

Thank you in advance for anything extra.

My permanent puzzle is the L prefix [and subsequent G etc] used by various Home Counties [NOT that Sussex, where my roots go back to 1700 or so,is a Home County]. I have never seen an authority for this, nor do I know when it started. I think I can see why though: it would help to distinguish from VF/TF and Militia/SR.