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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

killed 24 minutes apart


paul guthrie

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Here is a good one for Terry unless someone beats him to it. Re-reading Ann Clayton's A Cheshire Parish at War. Happy to be able to call Ann a friend, a fine historian and does a great job as editor of Stand To!

I left these names at home but both KIA at Jutland, 1st boy sailor 17 on Indefatigable and 24 minutes later 2d on Queen Mary. #1 is on Chatham Naval Memorial, #2 Portsmouth, makes no sense or does it? It's not to have them mentioned close to home since both from Cheshire. Thanks.

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Paul

The names of Royal Navy men lost at sea are inscribed on the official CWGC naval memorial at the home port of the ship in which they served or the one nearest to that home port - not the one nearest their home town.

Therefore, this situation says that each ship had a different home port.

There are official naval memorials at Plymouth, Portsmouth, Lee-on-Solent*, Liverpool*, Lowestoft*, Chatham and Tower Hill, London (Merchant Navy) in the UK although those marked * are WW2 only - the others are both wars.

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Come on then Terry explain this one ...

42845 Private Albert Edward Tills, Essex Regiment and 42840 Private William Croucher, Essex Regiment, both of the 10th Essex were killed in the very same action on the same day. Both men had enlisted at Herne Bay and been posted to the Bedfordshire Regiment, Albert as 10449 and William as 10444. They were transferred to the 10th Essex Battalion together and this must have been a block transfer of men for William became 42840 and Albert 42845.

By coincidence Albert was born at Rainham just eight days before William Croucher and the two homes were not more than a stone’s throw from each other.

They attended the same school, the Rainham (Kent) Council School and both left aged 13. The coincidences suggest that these boys were firm friends and had enlisted together.

Albert Tills has no known grave and his name is commemorated on panel 52 of the Pozieres Memorial, whilst William Croucher, also has no known grave but is commemorated some distance away on memorial 8 of the Gentelles French Military Cemetery (Hangard Communal Cemetery Extension), France.

It does seem a great shame that the two friends who were united in death as well as life, are commemorated on different memorials. Any ideas?

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Signals

There is an error in your story!

You correctly say that Albert Tills has no known grave and is commemorated as such on the Pozieres Memorial - the appropriate place for the missing of the area.

However, you are wrong in your statement that William Croucher also has no known grave. His grave's location is known. It is in Gentelles French Military Cemetery.

This cemetery is now removed/cleared but not all the 48 UK soldiers were found. Those that were not, including Croucher, are commemorated by Special Memorial in Hangard Communal Cemetery Extension.

He is not missing just 'mislaid'. You will know that this can be seen frequently in Western Front CWGC cemeteries - where a casualty could not be found when a cemetery was cleared or had been destroyed by shellfire. Special Memorial headstones are then used nearby to indicate where the grave is/was even though it can no longer be found.

There is a world of difference between having 'no known grave' and being buried in a formerly known grave that is now lost. Memorials to the Missing are reserved for just that - those that were never found when it came to organise proper cemeteries (ie from individual battlefield graves) or simply were never seen again or who had been atomised.

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Terry I never doubted you would meet the challenge!

That explains it ... although I must have missed the source that said he was "mislaid". I had wondered if he had been a battlefield burial later lost but I think I discounted this as I am sure my research suggested he was buried some distance from where his bttn were in action on that day. I did think possibly wounded and died same day at a CCS but that didnt seem to make sense either.

I did not think of your explanation as most of those "mislaid" that I have come across have there own headstone with the words "Thought to be buried in this cemetery" or such similar inscription.

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Signals

I have not been to this particular cemetery and so I can't say what the Gentelles Special Memorial looks like - whether it consists of individual headstones or a single tablet/block. The original CWGC register suggests it is individual headstones which would have such an inscription as you describe - ie "Buried in Gentelles French Military Cemetery" or similar.

The crucial point to remember is that 'missing' means just that - never found or not recovered from an individual battlefield grave by the authorities. This second part covers men buried by comrades in convenient shell holes or isolated locations where the spot was obviously known at the time to a few but later lost. It does not cover those men buried in what were at the time organised cemeteries but who could not be found later during clearance due to battle damage or simply poor/wrong information.

Once you get that difference in mind, it falls into place.

Of course, behind all this, you have to remember that roughly half the 'missing' have been found but not identified - hence the Unknown soldiers.

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